What do people mean when they say they bottom out?

[Robert P]

I see people talk about bottoming out on a mouthpiece - generally talking about shallow pieces. I assume they mean their lips literally mash up against the bottom of the cup of the mp.

Looking at any pic I can find of someone buzzing into a visualizer, and testing it myself, I don't see enough penetration past the plane of the rim to come anywhere near actually touching the cup. If I run a straight-edged piece of paper across the bottom/backside of the visualizer while buzzing hard, I feel no contact with my lips.

The shallowest pieces I have are a Jet-Tone T1A and Studio B, I don't feel it on either of them.

Can someone explain if/why my understanding is wrong or that it isn't an old brassplayer wive's tale?
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[HERMOKIWI]

"Bottoming out" means that the lips come in contact with the bottom of the cup. When the lips contact the bottom of the cup the contact impedes the ability of the lips to vibrate. The shallower the cup the more risk there is of bottoming out.

Some players are fine on a shallow cup at first but as they tire their lips start to protrude more into the cup because their muscles are not as able to resist the airflow, which can result in bottoming out. The type of embouchure, the physiology of the lips and the strength of the muscles all factor in to whether the player can play a shallow cup mouthpiece without bottoming out.
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HERMOKIWI

[Robert P]

[Benge.nut]

Couldn't the "bottoming out" mean the lip just meets the inside wall of the cup, not necessarily the bottom of the cup.

I was having mouthpiece work done one, and kept bottoming out, and the sound was shutting off. I was going to have an undercut put in the piece or make it a little deeper, because i couldn't figure out where the intrusion was.

So Greg Black gave me some of his wife's lip stick to put on, and I played on the piece. After I bottomed out the lipstick showed where my lip intrusion was and that I was hitting the side of the wall cup. Greg changed the inside shape a bit, and didn't have to make it any deeper to prevent me from bottoming out.

I've used the same lipstick trick a few other times when getting work done, and it's embarrassing but I see exactly what's going on inside the mouthpiece cup at least.

[VetPsychWars]

[Robert P]

[razeontherock]

[HERMOKIWI]

[Robert P]

[Benge.nut]

And to the OP:

Jet tones were specifically designed so the player doesn't bottom out. They mostly all have an undercut groove under the rim. This gives more chop room inside the cup so the lips don't touch the inside cup when they are swollen.

Also Jet tones aren't the shallowest cups out there. They use a modified V cup, and are medium shallow at best, usually with some kind are enlarged throat entrance which removes some resistance and prevents chops caving into the cup.

Man Jettones were great designs. Just too bad they get such a bad reputation.

[SaxoTrump]

While my take on it is out of context I recently found out anolther meaning of mouthpiece=MP "bottoms out" in relation to my purchase of a cornet. Sometimes a MP with an unmatched shank (perhaps too long for a given MP receiver) bottoms out meaning the MP shank is longer than the regular MP shank length that particular horn can accept. In that case either the MP shank end or receiver or both can be damaged by excessive lapping when someone tries to make them fit.

[GordonH]

[Robert P]

[GordonH]

It would be having room for air that would be the problem. Less of a problem for trombone.
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[Robert P]

[Louise Finch]

Hi

My understanding on bottoming out is that it generally occurs against the sides of the cup, and is as much as factor of alpha angle and cup diameter than cup depth.

My understanding again is that bottoming out is more likely on a larger diameter cup, since the larger cup diameter generally allows more of the lips to enter the cup.

Additionally, bottoming out is more likely to occur with a high alpha angle mouthpiece rather than low alpha angle mouthpiece, owing to the lips more readily being able to come into contact with a shallower slope into the cup.

I always think of this concept in terms of a V shape for a high alpha angle compared to a U shape for a lower alpha angle (obviously I realise that no mouthpiece is either completely V or U shaped, and I am just using V and U to designate a high and low alpha angle respectively, regardless of the actual cup shape). Regardless of the overall cup depth, bottoming out is more likely to occur with a V rather than an U, simply owing to the relative steepness of the transition into the cup.

I would say that the chance of bottoming out is decreased with a lower alpha angle (more undercut) and smaller cup diameter, and that if you want to experience bottoming out, that a very shallow cup with a very high alpha angle in a very large cup diameter, would be the mouthpiece on which to try.

Although admittedly not the largest cup diameter, the first example which comes to mind of a potential mouthpiece for bottoming out would be the Bach 3F, as shown on the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator. If you compare it to something like a Warburton 3SV/4SV, I would say that the potential for bottoming out on the Warburton would be greatly reduced (I fully appreciate that the Warburton SV cup is also deeper, I'm just using it as an example and am comparing the steepness of the undercut.

Personally I've never personally experienced bottoming out, but have never played a shallow cup.

All the best

Lou
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[furcifer]

"Bottoming out" means that the buzz is being stopped by contact somewhere beyond the normal rim contact. It doesn't have to be so literal.

Some people have an embouchure such that they "bottom out" all the time, but it doesn't stop their buzz because the aperture still has room. They actually utilize more of the inside of the piece for support than just the rim - at least in certain ranges of the horn - but most of them never think or talk much about it.

Concave V's like Lynn Nicholson's XPiece might be near-impossible for some people to play due to their embouchure type and physiology, because the lips are almost in total contact with the "concave v-cup", while the actual throat is further down. Of course the XPiece is actually a tool for establishing and resetting the embouchure to utilize Lynn's "MF Protocol", and not really intended to be a "main piece". FWIW, the XPiece also comes with the Reversible Rim, which is the other tool in the methodology, but it's also an effective visualizer.
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[Brad361]

Not sure it matters whether you actually hit the bottom of the cup or the sides, it's the same end result. Tissue contacts a hard (mouthpiece) surface, vibration stops or is impeded....results are pretty much the same.
I think those of us using shallower/tighter pieces do a balancing act with what works, especially as we tire/get lip swelling. Too shallow for the individual and many of us have problems earlier in a gig/playing session.

Brad
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[Gartex]

Lips stop buzzing because they touch the bottom of the cup!
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[Brad361]