My progress after two weeks TCE / Questions

[Justus]

Thanks for all the helpful replies so far. I feel I am making steady progress. Here is a concise list of all the tips I've gathered so far:

General tips:
-never allow the tongue to recede
-keep teeth wide open (for me: pinky toe wide)
-keep tongue thick at all times
-do not overblow (hold back)
-anchor tongue tip on the top of the lower lip (keep broad contact at all times)
-bring lower lip up and in against tongue wedge (aperture well above cutting edge of lower teeth)
-keep back of the tongue low (no tongue arch, think “aa”)
-keep the corners relaxed
-don’t ever pull chin down
-move tongue only vertically, i.e. keep it pushed forward in all registers (think of not moving it at all)
-don’t blow, spit

Playing sensations:
-feel an actual buzz/vibration on the top of the tongue on every articulation
-feel grip of top of the tongue (curled part, not tip) and upper lip as wide (corner to corner) as possible

Did I forget anything important? Is anything incorrect/misleading?

[Justus]

OMG, I had a huge epiphany today. It turned out I still unconsciously arched the back of my tongue in the middle register (in the high register I intuitively didn't use the arch). That prevented me from holding the forward position (I guess it's not possible to maintain the U shape when the back is arched). Just as I said in the tips above, thinking "aa" while tonguing/slurring stopped that from happening immediately.

Now I feel there is much less resistance so that the notes respond with much less air and effort. The sound is slightly more (what you guys would call) brilliant now, a bit too much for my taste. I also still have lots of work to do w.r.t. articulation, but today I felt what efficiency TCE can bring in the low/mid register.

[tptguy]

At this stage, do all you can to keep taste out of the equation. Your trumpet abilities are progressing rapidly and your ears will progress even more. Open your ears as carefully as you can to improvements in solid, focused core and dead center pitch. And never spread your sound, via chops or equipment, as that's the first enemy of progress. If you successfully leave taste until late in the process then you'll avoid most wrong turns. Many years from now, recall the previous line and see how you've done Best wishes 👍

[Benge.nut]

"At this stage, do all you can to keep taste out of the equation"

What the heck does that mean??
🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤔🙄

[razeontherock]

[razeontherock]

[Justus]

[Justus]

[tptguy]

Perhaps it would be clearer if OP's word 'taste' is changed to 'personal preference'. To a large degree, our personal preferences are shaped by what we've been exposed to, become accustomed to, been taught. That helps explain why so many trumpeters of every level accept flat and unfocused pitch - and even teach it. However as the chops get more efficient, more secure and less overblown, the ears also improve. If we use personal preference to direct the initial stages of new chop development then most of us end up chasing our own tails. And those detours greatly slow progress.

[Benge.nut]

You guys make this system entirely do difficult to explain by being so esoteric and ambiguous.

Couple that with the fact there are no examples of any professional musician professing to be a follower of this system. No video example of a player correctly playing this way or explaining the system. Only people talking about what it should sound like and feel like.

The system is quite simple and it's just variation on many others like the modified K and Claude Gordon and different variations on Reinhardt's observations on what many players do naturally

Your tongue is forward, and wide, always.

The tip is anchored either slightly behind, on top or in front of the bottom teeth.

The mid section of the tongue forms a curl which engages the top cutting edge of the teeth, and both lips.

The tongue should be wide and cover all teeth and edge to edge of both lips.

What the role of the lips do is ambiguous and changes frequently from time to time here on the TH and from what Jerry teaches.

That's it. Your sound will be more focused and your articulation will get much more pop. Playing this way will also strain your legato playing, slurs and lip trills will be more difficult and multiple tonguing is all but a mystery on how to approach.

Jerry tried explained multiple tonguing to me once by saying alternating between a spit buzz and a cough??? Seriously, this is what he said.

I use a variation on this TCE around high C and above. Below that, I always have naturally articulated through my teeth but sometimes my tongue retracts, sometimes it doesn't. I never use this while multiple tonguing or while doing lip trills. In the lower register, it's just over kill.

For me Jerry's older teachings of proper function and role of the lips were MUCH more beneficial and scientific in their approach, than strictly focusing on the tongue and using poetic instructions to cloud the fact that nobody knows how the heck this system should be approached.

And again...no pros anywhere backing up this new TCE stuff? No videos of TCE guys burning through classical literature or playing demanding shows or big band jobs hailing the benefits?

BUT you ask some pros if they articulate through their teeth? Lots of them will say so. Ask about the role of the bottom lip, and chin direction? Lots say they play like Trumpet Yoga and old Superchops methods describe.

So there are always combinations and variations. Nothing is absolute, as we are all individuals and there is no one size fits all method, or mouthpiece or horn.

Take the good and leave the rest. Try new things, but be pragmatic and realistic.

[Justus]

Just made another short demo of my current status. Today I figured out that if I only concentrate on staying in broad contact with the lower lip, I'll automatically do the right tongue motion (no arch of the back). I think that when my tongue did recede in the past, it was almost exclusively due to me trying to use the traditional arch.

Of course, I'll also have to keep all the other pieces in place, but this seems to be a way of thinking about it that works for me.

Is it normal that the obicularis oris becomes more engaged at some point (from high F upward for me) or should I try to avoid that? Also: Do you think my articulation has improved compared to the last one? A good sign is that the DHC seems relatively well in tune to me.

[Justus]

Had my first phone lesson with Jerry today. Just called him and he stayed on the phone for an hour, telling anecdotes as well as examining my playing. He is a really nice guy who genuinely cares about teaching and he didn't charge me anything at all for the lesson.
I do have to say though that he seems a bit too convinced of his own ability on the trumpet and his method. I think he is too concerned about being right (and others being wrong), rather than just advocating a (not the) way of playing the trumpet that works. On the other hand, large parts of the trumpet community seem at least equally convinced to unjustifiably dismiss his ideas as nonsense.
He played something for me which admittedly was extremely high, but with a sound quality that I would not consider acceptable for myself.

Most importantly, I took from the lesson that it is inconvenient to think about tongue thickness during playing. Instead, I should focus on pulling the lower lip in against the curled tongue to maintain the grip which automatically makes sure the tongue is sufficiently thick.

[tptguy]

Once you get strong chops you can easily shape the sound as you wish. But for now, if you follow what your ears are used to then you'll send your chops back your old way. We are all guilty of chasing our tails this way. But keep this in mind as you experince the ups and downs of progress and you'll speed your progress tremendously.

Awesome that Jerry extended the first lesson free. He's incredible that way. Do your best to schedule a second lesson that's on you. Still just $50 I'm pretty sure.

[Forte]

[Justus]

It's perfectly understandable for Callet to be proud of his method. You've surely noticed though that, in the parts of my post you didn't quote, I also praised and defended him. I agree that Callet probably wouldn't have accomplished what he did, had he not truly believed that his approach is right.

For the sake of getting along with other people though, I prefer to stay less ideologically involved. Personally, TCE has (already) improved my playing, but there will always be many players who'll succeed based on other approaches.

[Justus]

Today I had a very frustrating experience that turned into a very helpful one. On some days I need about an hour to get everything to work because one of the many things to keep in mind is not working properly. It's not always the case, but still frustrating since it makes using the new embouchure for rehearsals/gigs tough.

However, today I found that when things were not working I tried even more to keep the tongue thick, making things worse not better. When I deliberately want to make the tongue thick, I actually tense up the back part of the tongue and arch it (at which point TCE stops working).
I then noticed that I can now actually hold the forward position in a relaxed fashion (probably something I wasn't able to do initially) which made my playing so much better immediately.

Conclusion: Do not tense up the tongue too much, especially not the back part. The only tension you should feel is at the front where the tongue wedge presses against the upper teeth.

Do you also think about pressing the tongue wedge harder against the upper teeth to ascend? So far that is the best visualisation I've come up with for the subtle tongue motion that is supposed to take place.

[Benge.nut]

Try to bite your tongue, covering front side and back teeth. A complete seal. Open your jaw a bit while still concentrating on your tongue being in contact with ALL your teeth.

With this, and NOT your horn, get the feeling by just pumping air out. No buzz, no mouthpiece, just hissing air. Then try and buzz with that set up, then play.

This is the set up and feeling I get around high C and above. Tongue covering all teeth, for me most importantly BACK Teeth and side teeth as well. This really channels the air, and gets a faster more compressed stream of air.

Below high C this is overkill and a waste of energy and focus that I don't think is necessary. Folks here will tell you you MUST do this or that...but in the lower register to have that much compression is just too much.

The higher I play, the more my tongue widens and thickens. Just like when you whistle. Try to whistle an octave or more from a low note to a high note and focus on what your tongue is doing. See how your tongue anchors to the side and back teeth and gets wider and thicker? It's very natural, just like playing trumpet. Now try anchoring your tongue that way and whistle a low note. It's possible...but unnecessary.

[Justus]

Thanks for your answer, Benge.nut!

In the low register I use the same tongue set up, but I press the tongue wedge less against the upper teeth, thus admitting more (less compressed) air. Obviously it would be possible to play in this register with a less forward tongue too, but I really enjoy having a consistent set up throughout all registers. And, as I said above, by pressing less against the upper teeth, there is less compression and consequently less work for the tongue.

[Justus]

Played my first controlled Double High E today. Also found generally that, when old habits creep back in (usually at the beginning of a practicing session), it's helpful to play as softly and with as little air as possible. It still takes like 20 mins currently (has decreased already over time fortunately though) until everything is in place. Once it is, I can literally play for hours without significant fatigue or other issues.

Question to the more experienced TCE users: Do you still need a long warm up until you're completely ready or can you just pick up the horn and it works? How do you warm up (spit buzzing and short attacks?)? What is a quick way to get on track again when something is going wrong during a rehearsal/gig?

On another note: I've experienced a huge positive difference in my sound/articulation in the low register. I can now for the first time play classical pieces with a sound that matches my ideal. Before I was kind of pushed into jazz (which I still love of course) because my anchor tongue was good for range and lead playing but not for classical articulations.

The only thing I can't work out yet is double tonguing. When I do the cough my throat makes a rather big movement and even so I can't really produce a remotely acceptable articulation. Does anybody have a visualisation (etc.) of where exactly the articulation happens or how to think about it? I've read a lot about it here, but it's still a bit of a mystery to me how it is actually supposed to work (Callet just told me to cough on the phone without any further instructions).

BTW: Thanks so much for all the helpful comments so far! This forum has helped me a lot in progressing with TCE to this point and I am sure this thread will be of use to future TCE users just like other old threads have been useful to me.

[Benge.nut]