Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: A reply
Hello all,
Thank you all for your multitude of responses. The help is very much appreciated. A few people mentioned getting a teacher, but I didn’t mention that I’ve been taking lessons for almost 5 years. However, the last time I brought my lip bump problem up to him, he dismissed it as being natural, and he told me not to worry about it.
Cheiden mentioned my location, I live about 30 minutes from DC, in Northern VA.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:44 am Post subject:
I think you need a second opinion from another teacher. Many players will get a slightly visible "ring" mark after playing, but it's slight and temporary, certainly not swollen like yours appears to be. It's great that you have posted a pic and video of the problem, but even with that I think you need an evaluation by a qualified teacher. An obvious and rather simplistic guess is that you're using way too much mouthpiece pressure, but just telling you that doesn't tell you how to correct it; it's difficult to diagnose and help you correct the problem via this forum. It's sort of like the old joke, "I told my doctor it hurts when I do that", he says "then don't do that."
Also, you may have already mentioned this, but what is your practice schedule like? And so you don't make the same mistake as some of my students have, by "practice " I mean you, method and etude books and a metronome, don't include school rehearsals.
And thanks for getting back with us with more info. By all means don't give up, there are many accomplished players who have overcome similar problems.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:59 am; edited 4 times in total
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:55 am Post subject: Re: A reply
Matt007Trumpet wrote:
Hello all,
Thank you all for your multitude of responses. The help is very much appreciated. A few people mentioned getting a teacher, but I didn’t mention that I’ve been taking lessons for almost 5 years. However, the last time I brought my lip bump problem up to him, he dismissed it as being natural, and he told me not to worry about it.
Cheiden mentioned my location, I live about 30 minutes from DC, in Northern VA.
Looks to me like your are using way too much air and way too much pressure. it's like your blowing your aperture open so the lips don't have a chance to vibrate. Also based on the airyness of the notes it indicates to me anyway that your lips are only vibrating because of the pressure you are applying with your arms. Whether that 1 1/2C is too big for you is another question. If you have had a teacher for 5 years and he has aloud you to continue in this fashion than it is time to find someone else, because playing trumpet isn't as hard as you are making it on yourself.
since your in the DC, virginia area, See if you can get a lesson from somebody in the military bands.
I also will restate my original idea, learn to play LEAD PIPE, ala the Bill Adam Approach. Also watch this guys videos, they will help.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPu1HMxQ0a-OjnttWA4TkGw
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:26 am Post subject:
Thanks for posting links to the picture and the video.
I agree with the diagnosis of others: blowing too hard and using too much pressure. I don't think the mouthpiece is too big, though. Judging from where the ring on your lip is, it seems that you might have the rim on the red, which also explains the lump. A smaller piece probably would not be helpful.
I won't prescribe solutions, but I agree that you need to get a second opinion from a highly regarded teacher, in person.
By the way, Mike Sailors, a pro who plays with the Hot Sardines, recently posted a blog article on "embouchure hotspots." Your video reminded me of his post because your mouthpiece placement is low on the top lip, in the red, and it looks like you were grinding the piece into your lip when you set up. Mike wrote about that in his article. Check it out:
http://mikesailorsmusic.com/hotspots/ _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:46 am Post subject: Re: A reply
Matt007Trumpet wrote:
Hello all,
Thank you all for your multitude of responses. The help is very much appreciated. A few people mentioned getting a teacher, but I didn’t mention that I’ve been taking lessons for almost 5 years. However, the last time I brought my lip bump problem up to him, he dismissed it as being natural, and he told me not to worry about it.
Cheiden mentioned my location, I live about 30 minutes from DC, in Northern VA.
Ditch your teacher immediately. If he thinks all the above is ok he isn't helping you. I had a teacher for about 13 years, and not knowing better, I made little to no progress wrt similar problems you experience. As soon as I got some proper tuition things improved.
You massively over blow.
Your mouth corner inhalation is extremely excessive.
You stretch and thin your lips prior to playing.
You use excessive pressure.
There's other things I'll not get into here, but those are the top 4.
You essentially don't have an embouchure... in that it's all stretched, over blown and crushed. Your poor lips man!!
Here's the best part - you can turn this around with regular, methodical practice of the correct exercises. I guarantee in one year you could be a different player if you lose your current teacher and study with someone who can help and knows chops.
As I usually do, please consider these teachers, people I have taken lesson(s) with either in person or on Skype:
Roger Ingram
Bryan Davis
Chris LaBarbera
Rich Willey
And my cautionary advice: you will have a very slow process ahead if you decide to try teach yourself out of books or via reading forums etc... I did this, and I speak first hand to this. There's nothing like 1-1 lessons with someone who truly understands chops. I guarantee your teacher doesn't if he says anything you do is "normal".
I wish you all the best, and remember, this isn't rocket surgery... anyone can do it given the right form of practice and the right material and advice. You can turn this around man, it's not easy but if I did it anyone can!!!
First - playing from the very bottom of the horn like that and ascending is hard. I would have had you start higher, say low C. Or maybe G on the staff. Still, you're running into problems a bit early. You do okay up to Ab, in this video you hit a brick wall at A. You fumble out some thin, raspy higher notes but you clearly have no control past Ab.
Can you add another one starting on G on the staff? Also maybe a C scale starting from C on the staff to as high as you can go.
Some things to think about.
1. Make sure you're opening your teeth enough. You can choke off the sound by locking the teeth in place. It only takes a subtle change.
2. I'm looking at the basic balance of how you're using your lip muscles. You seem to be getting pretty tense/tight at a relatively low range. Among other things you need to have enough bottom lip past the teeth and relaxed enough to be able to vibrate in the mouthpiece, I wonder if the way you're tensing your bottom lip is working against that. This is also related to the point about your teeth opening as per point 1. If your teeth aren't open enough, if you don't have enough lip past the teeth it's going to cause problems. For that matter if you're overtensing either lip it will choke off the sound. You want the part of the lip that's under the rim and in the cup to be fairly loose with whatever tension is needed happening more around the mouthpiece and in the right amount and balance.
You're always walking a bit of a tightrope with many factors involved that can knock you off the rope - airstream, lip tension, proximity of the lips, mouth cavity/tongue level, teeth opening/alignment/position relative to the lips, pressure - too much/not enough/too much on one lip relative to the other. A small, subtle change can make a big difference between good sound, bad sound, no sound.
I would recommend trying another teacher. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
IMO, your lips appear to be rolled in too much, causing a lot of tension. You may need to work on rolling out and compressing more as you go higher. That being said, I wouldn't take my advice over the internet.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:52 am Post subject:
Brad361 wrote:
Winghorn wrote:
As I and other thoughtful posters have stated, the OP clearly needs the help of a good teacher.
He does not need "one size fits all' advice from armchair quarterbacks who wrongly believe that just because something worked for them, it will work for everyone.
As Brad361 correctly observed, the OP never stated he wanted to be a lead player. So why all the talk about double and triple Cs? The guy is in high school, for goodness sakes, not getting ready to try out for Maynard's ghost band!
I have an idea. If the OP is unable to afford lessons from a good private teacher, why don't we all chip in and set him up with a couple of Skype lessons with John Mohan? I am serious.
The physical problems this young high school player is having sound serious. If something isn't done right away, he may permanently injure himself and ruin his chances for ever becoming a good trumpet player.
If John is willing, I would gladly contribute toward the cost of some Skype lessons. Anyone else?
Sincerely,
Steve
If the OP is serious, and if he's still following this, count me in.💵
Brad
Well I am sure feeling complimented here! And you can count me in to the "contribution pool". I normally charge $75 per lesson with lessons usually lasting about an hour (sometimes less, usually longer). In particular, first lessons run quite long usually as there's a lot to cover. I still charge a flat $75 for the first lesson except in cases where the person is just planning on one lesson to get the basic concepts without further coaching.
Here's what I'll do. Assuming that the guy takes at least two lessons (one and then another one two weeks later), I'll add equally to whatever is raised. Perhaps the OP can contribute a bit, and if a few of us contribute, we can get him headed in the right direction. (Example: of the $150 needed for two lessons, maybe the OP contributes $37.50, two others here contribute $37.50 each, and I drop the price of the two lessons by $37.50). Or if 148 other people each contribute a dollar, the OP pays a dollar and I drop a dollar off the price... Something like that. In any case, I definitely would want the OP to have some skin in the game. It's been my experience in life that on the few cases where I haven't charged for my services (not just trumpet playing and/or teaching) what ever I did was not taken as seriously.
Can you describe what you consciously change as you ascend? All I'm seeing is the corners pulling back fairly aggressively and a tiny bit of pivot upward. What else are you doing specifically with regard to the lip, tongue, and jaw?
And FWIW, many young players can't reliably play chromatically starting from low F# up to second leger line C. And your sound doesn't sound shabby at all up through most of the staff. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: What next?
First of all, thank you all again for your help. It is greatly appreciated!
In response to what my practice schedule is like, I try to practice every day for anywhere from 30-45 minutes on weekdays when I have less time, or at least an hour on weekends. To warm up, I usually take my tuning slide out and blow to start. Then I usually do some lip slurs and scales for 10 or 15 minutes. The bulk of my time playing is usually spent working on pieces for my school ensembles, playing etudes or excerpts from various books my teacher lends me, such as (most recently) Voxman's Selected Studies or Philip Norris' Top 50 Orchestral audition excerpts, or playing etudes out of the Arban Book, unless I have something more pressing to play such as an audition piece. I try to warm down in my last 5 minutes by playing long, low tones.
I am also very interested in lessons from Mr. Mohan, but all of that depends on scheduling(and my parents OK.) I am unsure how to set that up however. I would also like to express my sincerest thanks to those of you who offered to help cover the cost of the lessons, but do not feel any pressure to do so.
I am also considering changing teachers from my current one to a military trumpet player that I know, but I need to think further on this.
Once again, thank you all very much for the help in solving this issue.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject:
John Mohan wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Winghorn wrote:
As I and other thoughtful posters have stated, the OP clearly needs the help of a good teacher.
He does not need "one size fits all' advice from armchair quarterbacks who wrongly believe that just because something worked for them, it will work for everyone.
As Brad361 correctly observed, the OP never stated he wanted to be a lead player. So why all the talk about double and triple Cs? The guy is in high school, for goodness sakes, not getting ready to try out for Maynard's ghost band!
I have an idea. If the OP is unable to afford lessons from a good private teacher, why don't we all chip in and set him up with a couple of Skype lessons with John Mohan? I am serious.
The physical problems this young high school player is having sound serious. If something isn't done right away, he may permanently injure himself and ruin his chances for ever becoming a good trumpet player.
If John is willing, I would gladly contribute toward the cost of some Skype lessons. Anyone else?
Sincerely,
Steve
If the OP is serious, and if he's still following this, count me in.💵
Brad
Well I am sure feeling complimented here! And you can count me in to the "contribution pool". I normally charge $75 per lesson with lessons usually lasting about an hour (sometimes less, usually longer). In particular, first lessons run quite long usually as there's a lot to cover. I still charge a flat $75 for the first lesson except in cases where the person is just planning on one lesson to get the basic concepts without further coaching.
Here's what I'll do. Assuming that the guy takes at least two lessons (one and then another one two weeks later), I'll add equally to whatever is raised. Perhaps the OP can contribute a bit, and if a few of us contribute, we can get him headed in the right direction. (Example: of the $150 needed for two lessons, maybe the OP contributes $37.50, two others here contribute $37.50 each, and I drop the price of the two lessons by $37.50). Or if 148 other people each contribute a dollar, the OP pays a dollar and I drop a dollar off the price... Something like that. In any case, I definitely would want the OP to have some skin in the game. It's been my experience in life that on the few cases where I haven't charged for my services (not just trumpet playing and/or teaching) what ever I did was not taken as seriously.
Cheers,
John
Count me in.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
This is mostly just an "FYI" for the crowd here. A detail which I ought to have mentioned first. Maybe someone else said it too but it seems obvious to me now.
I suggest that the O/P rest his chops until the swelling goes way down and the pain subsides. Am feeling almost remiss that I didnt post this before. Take some time off my goodness. With a lip that badly swollen no real progress can be made. Not until the swelling goes away.
Then after a week or two re-examine why you're using so much arm pressure. I have a good feeling about this fellow's recovery. I liked his tone on the video too. Granted his chops are butchered right now and he's getting a little bit of scratchiness in his sound. However his tone reminds me of certain cats who later developed unbelievable range. Back in the early 1970's when he had serious chop problems Roy Roman had a tone similar to the O/P. And Roy just needed to learn to get physics working for, rather than against him.
This O/P is an interesting person. A good case study. Seems both dedicated and very honest. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:38 pm Post subject:
Good thought, Lionel.
Because the OP said that the lump stuck around for a half hour, I assumed it was not permanent and did not require extra rest.
But thinking about it, I can see how the OP's chops might be chronically sore and beat up to the extent that excessive swelling after playing, which might otherwise not occur, could result.
I agree that the OP seems both dedicated and honest. And he actually doesn't sound too bad for a player of his experience level IMHO, especially considering his problems with swelling.
Some time away from the horn and some Skype lessons with John might be all this fine young man needs to get back, and stay back, on track.
As I and other thoughtful posters have stated, the OP clearly needs the help of a good teacher.
He does not need "one size fits all' advice from armchair quarterbacks who wrongly believe that just because something worked for them, it will work for everyone.
As Brad361 correctly observed, the OP never stated he wanted to be a lead player. So why all the talk about double and triple Cs? The guy is in high school, for goodness sakes, not getting ready to try out for Maynard's ghost band!
I have an idea. If the OP is unable to afford lessons from a good private teacher, why don't we all chip in and set him up with a couple of Skype lessons with John Mohan? I am serious.
The physical problems this young high school player is having sound serious. If something isn't done right away, he may permanently injure himself and ruin his chances for ever becoming a good trumpet player.
If John is willing, I would gladly contribute toward the cost of some Skype lessons. Anyone else?
Sincerely,
Steve
If the OP is serious, and if he's still following this, count me in.💵
Brad
Well I am sure feeling complimented here! And you can count me in to the "contribution pool". I normally charge $75 per lesson with lessons usually lasting about an hour (sometimes less, usually longer). In particular, first lessons run quite long usually as there's a lot to cover. I still charge a flat $75 for the first lesson except in cases where the person is just planning on one lesson to get the basic concepts without further coaching.
Here's what I'll do. Assuming that the guy takes at least two lessons (one and then another one two weeks later), I'll add equally to whatever is raised. Perhaps the OP can contribute a bit, and if a few of us contribute, we can get him headed in the right direction. (Example: of the $150 needed for two lessons, maybe the OP contributes $37.50, two others here contribute $37.50 each, and I drop the price of the two lessons by $37.50). Or if 148 other people each contribute a dollar, the OP pays a dollar and I drop a dollar off the price... Something like that. In any case, I definitely would want the OP to have some skin in the game. It's been my experience in life that on the few cases where I haven't charged for my services (not just trumpet playing and/or teaching) what ever I did was not taken as seriously.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:11 am Post subject:
It appears that there are four of us will to contribute to some lessons for Matt, the OP. Counting Matt, that makes each of us responsible for 20% of the $75 cost for each lesson (meaning $15 per person per lesson). I'd like to do this for at least two lessons (three would be preferable).
So Matt, talk to your parents about this and then send me an e-mail through the e-mail button at the bottom of my posts if you want to take advantage of the offer. Each of the two to three lessons will cost you $15. As far as collecting from the other contributors I will take care of that - I've known these guys for years and they're all good for it. If you don't already have a Webcam the best bang for the buck is the Logitech C920 which costs about $65 on Amazon:
After the first two (or three if that's okay with the others) lessons if you want to continue, the normal price will apply. I usually give one lesson every other week, but folks on a budget take just one lesson every four weeks - in that case I write up two individual Lesson Plans to be done for two weeks each before the next lesson. So lessons can be as inexpensive as $75/month.
To Steve, Brad and Trumpetingbynurture: I think you have collectively elevated the Trumpet Herald Forum several notches with your generous offer.
Best wishes,
John
P.S. I've thought about it, and I would appreciate the "scholarship" funding for just the first two lessons. For the third lesson, while I will expect Matt to pay his $15 share, I'll cover the rest (I think it's more than enough for Steve, Brad and Trumpetingbynurture to help out with the first two lessons - I'm just donating my time really, so I'll cover the brunt of the third lesson).
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:30 am Post subject:
Just let me know how to pay my portion once everything is worked out.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
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