| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: CAN VENDORS GET THEIR INFO RIGHT REGARDING WICKS PRODUCTS. |
 |
|
I made inquiries regarding the Wicks 5EFL to 3 vendors & got three different answers. Dillon says that the "FL" invariably stands for Yamaha taper, but ME states that the 5EFL is strictly Cuesnon, & JR states ALL Wicks mouthpieces are "small Morse taper" (in that case my FL would not be compatible with my Yamaha shank, & I doubt it)
What I think is that FL means Yamaha, F means Cuesnon, except for 5EFL. But what do I know? If so, where does Bach fit in? I vaguely remember reading that a Yamaha taper will work with a Bach flugelhorn, but you have to pull out the leadpipe. I did play my DW4FL in a friends Bach 183. No obvious intonation issues--though it inserted deeply!. So, what's the bottom line with that?
Also, can a Yamaha lead pipe be inserted into a Bach or Cuesnon to accimodatw a Yamaha fitted mouthpiece? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
joe_PhD
Regular Member
Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 15
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I believe I've seen that chart & the 5EFL is supposed to be for Cuesnon style flugelhorns, & ME has confirmed that. See the comparison chart. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
It appears (as you already know) that the 5EFL is made to fit a Couesnon flugel. This shank is not tapered...it is a straight tube. I don't think that will fit your Bach which uses a small morse taper.
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
I find this even more confusing.
Intuition tells me that "American" they mean Bach (small Morse) taper, and that "Japanese" means Yamaha (large Morse) taper, which aren't the same thing. I've also understood that "European" flugels sometimes have a near trumpet shank which is decidedly different than the French/Couesnon/straight non-taper.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B. Scriver
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 1204
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cheiden wrote: |
I find this even more confusing.
Intuition tells me that "American" they mean Bach (small Morse) taper, and that "Japanese" means Yamaha (large Morse) taper, which aren't the same thing. I've also understood that "European" flugels sometimes have a near trumpet shank which is decidedly different than the French/Couesnon/straight non-taper. |
Yeah, manufacturers need to stop using such vague terms. Maybe most American flugels use the large Morse taper, but certainly not all of them (i.e. Bach.)
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B. Scriver
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 1204
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
All I see in the blogpost is that using the word Morse is incorrect, but I don't see it mentioning what the correct terminology would be. Maybe I'm missing something.
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Very specific, but I think most people are looking for "does this mouthpiece fit properly into my flugelhorn" info that's a little less measurement and terms.
Probably the best course of action would be to call or Denis Wick and ask. Say I have a "x" flugel, which mouthpiece should I buy. They shouldknow this stuff about their own products.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
It seems like there's a "Large" taper, and "Small" taper, and a "Straight" taper. Those terms should cover almost every flugel mouthpiece.
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Reading the Denis Wick spec sheet and the shank taper descriptions on Mouthpiece Express, it seems that Denis Wick labels their flugel mouthpieces like this:
nnF - flugel piece with small morse (Bach) taper
nnFL - flugel piece with large morse (Yamaha, et al) taper
nnEFL - flugel piece with French (Couesnon) taper.
Apparently the 5EFL is the only stock piece they offer with French taper.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B. Scriver
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 1204
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
From GR:
nnF - flugel piece with small morse (Bach) taper
nnFL - flugel piece with large morse (Yamaha, et al) taper
nnEFL - flugel piece with French (Couesnon) taper.
nnf - Small Bach Taper
Taper rate .0500" per inch
Beginning dimension .355"
Length of Taper or engagement 1.00" inch
Ending dimension .405"
nnFL - flugel piece with large taper and not Yamaha as they use the Small Bach too
Taper rate .0500" per inch
Beginning dimension .378" to .380" or a bit more depending on MFG
Length of Taper or engagement 1.00" inch and it might work in trumpets if it doesn't bottom out. Depends on the FL receiver. These will fit in the Bach receiver only engage about .450" to .465"
Ending dimension .428" to .430" for 1" inch
nnEFL - flugel piece with French (Couesnon) taper.
10mm diameter
Go to a local Tool and Die shop and ask them to put a small Morse taper on a shank. What will you get? Probably a strange look or #0 Morse taper.
Ok ask for a #1 Morse taper, will it fit in your horn…no. You need some specific dimensions:
1-Taper rate
2-Small diameter
3-Length
4-large diameter
Every taper needs a rate of Taper. Ask for a .0500” per 1.000”inch.
Every taper needs a starting dimension. Ask for .355” that is the small Bach.
Then you need an engagement or length. That is 1.000”
The end diameter is .405” just as in the Bach drawing.
www.grmouthpieces.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Crazy Finn wrote: |
Very specific, but I think most people are looking for "does this mouthpiece fit properly into my flugelhorn" info that's a little less measurement and terms.
Probably the best course of action would be to call or Denis Wick and ask. Say I have a "x" flugel, which mouthpiece should I buy. They shouldknow this stuff about their own products. |
Good luck finding Dennis. PM me with his number pleasw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dstdenis wrote: | Reading the Denis Wick spec sheet and the shank taper descriptions on Mouthpiece Express, it seems that Denis Wick labels their flugel mouthpieces like this:
nnF - flugel piece with small morse (Bach) taper
nnFL - flugel piece with large morse (Yamaha, et al) taper
nnEFL - flugel piece with French (Couesnon) taper.
Apparently the 5EFL is the only stock piece they offer with French taper. |
Thanx, that makes sense! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| B. Scriver wrote: |
nnFL - flugel piece with large taper and not Yamaha as they use the Small Bach too
|
Perhaps this is a question of semantics but I think you're introducing additional confusion. The small shank used on Bach flugels is decidedly different from the large shank used on Yamaha flugels. The Bach piece falls into the Yamaha flugel, and a Yamaha piece barely fits into a Bach flugel.
And while the rest of your post may, in fact, be entirely accurate, it doesn't help anyone without calipers make any sense of the published options available.
No disrespect intended and I fully appreciate that it might be just me that's having trouble getting my head around this.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
B. Scriver
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 1204
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Basically we have to think of this from a Journeyman Toolmaker's point of view as opposed to a trumpet player's point of view. After all, who do you want making your equipment, a skilled journeyman, or a trumpet player with a lathe?
My brain hurts.
Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Heim
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Then there is the difference between the early Elkhart Bach flugel mouthpieces and those of today |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joe_PhD
Regular Member
Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bassguy wrote: |
I believe I've seen that chart & the 5EFL is supposed to be for Cuesnon style flugelhorns, & ME has confirmed that. See the comparison chart. |
Great question. I didn't provide additional details, as it didn't seem important to your question. Sorry for any confusion.
In brief: The Couesnon question is difficult. I have seen some of these that take the "Couesnon" shank from Wick, but others than take the F. (I worked for quite a few years at a respected brass store.) The sample that I had access too was too small to compare serial numbers, years, and sizing. And, some of the latter may have been modified - difficult to determine through a phone order. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
