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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Three hours of training is a drag. No pay is even worse.
If those three hours mean you still get to work, and there is no loss in pay, and after raising concerns they don't budge, I'd just eat the three hours if the pay, consistently and quality of ongoing paid gigs would be worth while.
It's unfair, and maybe even illegal, but it's ONLY three hours. During those three hours maybe bring your schedule to work on, do your taxes, read a book, get your existentialism on...
Or in the parking lot before hand, get zooted on some good doobage and just zone out with Blue Oyster Cult playing in your head for the duration.
It's only three hours. |
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I've been asked to fill out IRS tax forms (in advance) on a few occasions with playing in various Churches. In those cases you still usually end up with the check in an envelope on the stand, often before the service starts.
Only one time did anything really unexpected happen, and that was because the person that cut checks for the particular church was out of town and they didn't have the checks. They said it would be mailed out instead. When it didn't arrive after a couple of weeks I emailed the church music director and he was super apologetic and embarrassed about it, and I got the check (and a little bit extra) in the next couple of days. I'm convinced it was just an accident and not intentional. I've played there before (and since) and never had another problem.
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gjarrell
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 175
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: |
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...putting on my corporate accountant hat here...calling you an employee doesn't make you an employee nor does paying you by the hour. Lots of people who are independent contractors get called EEs. And most of those people just go along, right or wrong. You're a contractor, because you work without supervision directing or training you how to perform your work, you're paid by the job not the time spent preparing and executing the job, and you decide when to perform and not perform when the opportunity arises. Treating you as an employee invokes a lot of duties and obligations on the organization's behalf with regard to employee benefits and DOL regulations. It's baffling why they insisted. It may be related to trying to comply with 1099 reporting requirements and they think that putting you on the payroll will ease the reporting burden.
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"When you play, make a statement. Don't ask a question." - Prof. Fielder |
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jmichaelhurt
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Joined: 19 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys for your responses. This is in reference to the VIRTUS training that is required for employment at the church. I have spoken with the business manager of the church (the guy who's doing my paperwork) and upon asking if the training is paid he said to refer to the music director who hired me. She said it's "not paid and is a requirement for being an employee of the church, as is paperwork".
I have not done the training yet as they said I have a 60 day grace period to complete it after my hire date. I play there three times this coming week and don't think I'll have a problem getting paid for that work but they're going to expect me to complete the training within that time period. My plan is to respectfully decline, assuming they don't offer to pay me for my time when I ask about it again in person, and be done with it. Ultimately I'll lose out on some money in the future but I'm just stubborn enough to not give away my time for free.
I have a new baby and a new job and my free time is most precious. If they can't comprehend this then I'm better off without the gig. It really isn't about the money so much as the principle of the matter.
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jmichaelhurt wrote: | Thanks guys for your responses. This is in reference to the VIRTUS training that is required for employment at the church. I have spoken with the business manager of the church (the guy who's doing my paperwork) and upon asking if the training is paid he said to refer to the music director who hired me. She said it's "not paid and is a requirement for being an employee of the church, as is paperwork".
I have not done the training yet as they said I have a 60 day grace period to complete it after my hire date. I play there three times this coming week and don't think I'll have a problem getting paid for that work but they're going to expect me to complete the training within that time period. My plan is to respectfully decline, assuming they don't offer to pay me for my time when I ask about it again in person, and be done with it. Ultimately I'll lose out on some money in the future but I'm just stubborn enough to not give away my time for free.
I have a new baby and a new job and my free time is most precious. If they can't comprehend this then I'm better off without the gig. It really isn't about the money so much as the principle of the matter. |
There are scores of hungry trumpet players that will gladly sit through the training session for your gig. Three gigs in one week from the Church? Sounds like a good job.
I understand principles and such, and I hope it's worth losing all that steady income.
Congrats on the newborn by the way!! Hope you guys are getting some sleep!! |
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JoseLindE4
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| There are other churches that need trumpet players at Easter that aren't going to jerk you around. I wouldn't do a 3 hour unpaid training session unless the gig was REALLY regular - not just Christmas and Easter - or the music director was willing to pay for the lost time on the back end. I'd find the whole thing pretty insulting. |
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JoseLindE4 wrote: | | There are other churches that need trumpet players at Easter that aren't going to jerk you around. I wouldn't do a 3 hour unpaid training session unless the gig was REALLY regular - not just Christmas and Easter - or the music director was willing to pay for the lost time on the back end. I'd find the whole thing pretty insulting. |
The OP has three scheduled jobs just for next week. Doesn't sound like a he's only playing Easter and Christmas gigs.
For me, a steady gig like that is not the easiest thing to come by these days. If I'm playing several times a month at a Church, and they need a one time three hour training seminar, unpaid, probably for their lawyers, and liability, and insurance stuff....like I said earlier, I'd eat the three hours and move one.
Principles and spite have cost me a lot of money in the past. I'm not that ideological or firm in my resolves these days, as good paying gigs are harder and harder to find. |
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Dale Proctor
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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I have a good day job, and don't depend on gig money to pay the bills. I'd refuse that nonsense in a minute if I was in that situation. I'm mixed up in an Easter gig that isn't working out too well so far (one service cut along with some of the pay), but at this point, I suppose I'll ride it out.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | Principles and spite have cost me a lot of money in the past. I'm not that ideological or firm in my resolves these days, as good paying gigs are harder and harder to find. |
Churches, particularly Catholic churches aren't famous for being short on $$. I'm not a labor attorney but if they're operating in violation of labor law they need to be held accountable and spanked hard.
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | Principles and spite have cost me a lot of money in the past. I'm not that ideological or firm in my resolves these days, as good paying gigs are harder and harder to find. |
Churches, particularly Catholic churches aren't famous for being short on $$. I'm not a labor attorney but if they're operating in violation of labor law they need to be held accountable and spanked hard. |
I'm sure there is some loophole in this training instance. Here's a link in case you are unfamiliar with what is involved. Again I'm sure this is all for insurance and reaction to lawsuits and criminal liability.
Seems like a good program and smart business. Although I am surprised if this is a program for employees, they aren't paid for the training.
Since they are a tax exempt entity there may be some loop hole I'm unaware of??
https://www.virtusonline.org/virtus/virtus_description.cfm |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | Principles and spite have cost me a lot of money in the past. I'm not that ideological or firm in my resolves these days, as good paying gigs are harder and harder to find. |
Churches, particularly Catholic churches aren't famous for being short on $$. I'm not a labor attorney but if they're operating in violation of labor law they need to be held accountable and spanked hard. |
Since they are a tax exempt entity there may be some loop hole I'm unaware of?? |
The thing to do would be to contact a labor attorney.
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | Principles and spite have cost me a lot of money in the past. I'm not that ideological or firm in my resolves these days, as good paying gigs are harder and harder to find. |
Churches, particularly Catholic churches aren't famous for being short on $$. I'm not a labor attorney but if they're operating in violation of labor law they need to be held accountable and spanked hard. |
Since they are a tax exempt entity there may be some loop hole I'm unaware of?? |
The thing to do would be to contact a labor attorney. |
For a three hour training seminar? I think the billable hours from the labor attorney would outweigh the money earned by 10 fold at least.
Again, if the gig is consistent monthly or weekly....I'd just suck it up and do the three hours unpaid and move on. But that's just me.... |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | The thing to do would be to contact a labor attorney. |
For a three hour training seminar? I think the billable hours from the labor attorney would outweigh the money earned by 10 fold at least. |
Your state or county bar probably has a referral service where you can get a not too expensive consultation just to clarify the law - then go to whatever the labor board is and blow the whistle on them.
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | JoseLindE4 wrote: | | There are other churches that need trumpet players at Easter that aren't going to jerk you around. I wouldn't do a 3 hour unpaid training session unless the gig was REALLY regular - not just Christmas and Easter - or the music director was willing to pay for the lost time on the back end. I'd find the whole thing pretty insulting. |
The OP has three scheduled jobs just for next week. Doesn't sound like a he's only playing Easter and Christmas gigs. |
Considering next week is Easter week, it very well may not be quite so regular. It could just be Good Friday, Easter Vigil (with its 3 hour litany of the Saints), and Easter Sunday.
But we agree, if it's a regular gig, you can tolerate more nonsense. If it isn't a regular gig, there's a year to find new Easter week gigs that might pay more than those three gigs combined and give a few nights back. My experience with Catholic Churches is they don't pay as much as some other denominations. Considering the runaround the OP is getting, I can't imagine the church is a very good employer. Most places I've been, you get twice the money and twice the incense for half of the work at Episcopal Churches.
One or two weeks of gigs a year can be replaced by more reputable churches. A weekly or monthly thing is a little different. |
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Benge.nut
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Benge.nut
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jmichaelhurt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:04 am Post subject: |
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I've averaged about $700 a year from this gig over the past 8 years. Personally, I'm not gonna miss it all that much and with a little asking around and digging could find another gig without too much hassle. It's not my Easter Sunday gig and frankly the passive aggressive tone I'm getting from them about all of this is off putting in and of itself. I'm going to ask about it in person and plead my case one more time and if the answer is still no then that's that, they'll just have to find some other sucker to con.
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deleted_user_680e93b
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Apparently i've been missing the boat. I have volunteered my services to my catholic church for the last few years for easter and christmas. Never thought about asking to be paid. Weddings are different of course, but i guess i wasn't thinking of this as a paying gig. Whatever, i'm always trying to show my sons that helping the community is important, this is how i do it. Don't begrudge you guys for charging though. just never thought of it. Got the call for Easter again this year, but can't make it, working a paying gig. Plus, my Local parish doesn't have the money to pay anyway, they are on the ropes, so i do what i can to help.
regards,
tom |
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JoseLindE4
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: |
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It's a different thing if it's your church, but I bet they pay the plumber.
If they are switching you to "hourly," I bet that $700/year goes down. Even if it's a pretty modest check, non-musicians aren't going to be happy to see that you're getting paid that much an "hour." |
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Oncewasaplayer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Lots of interesting discussion here. In the corporate world, companies require employees to go through training on a number of topics. For instance, everyone takes a class on sexual harassment issues. These trainings are simply to cover the company's butt during the next lawsuit that will eventually come their way. And with the Catholic Church's long-standing terrible abuse of children, the lawsuits arrived and keep arriving.
One way to change those troubles is to educate the people--all the people-- who work there. And if the church hires freelance contractors who do something illegal, the church remains liable for that person's deeds. So I'm not surprised they have a three-hour training session that will cover a number of issues.
I'm also remembering that religious organizations have ministerial exemptions regarding some elements of labor law.
Paying church work is a common source of revenue for working musicians. (Thank goodness Handel liked the sound of the trumpet--he's been keeping trumpet players happy and slightly wealthier for decades.) Doing some annoying free labor (training) if it gets you more money down the road might be good. Or not. For some it's about principles. (Remember that as you stand in your kitchen looking into an empty cupboard.) Or it's about the annoying things we do to make more money. Money is useful. Your call.
And what about the music? Is this a great sounding musical venue? Great organ player? Great choir? Playing the wonderful history of church music? That plays a role here, too.
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