Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:52 am Post subject: Chinese flugels
So I decided to complete my instrument shake up by ordering a Chinese flugel. So far I have sold a couple of instruments and bought a couple which has put me in a better equipment position without actually spending any cash. My current flugel is a problem because of the mouthpiece receiver. It limits my choice of mouthpiece a bit too much. If I play on modern deep mouthpieces it really needs a trigger which it doesn't have or being cut down slightly in length. Getting the work done would have been quite a bit of money so I decided against it for now. I might return to that or maybe just give it to one of the local kids who needs a flugel.
I think my long term solution will be a Yamaha but lots of people seem to get by on the Chinese flugels. A lot of them look very similar. I was stuck waiting for a train in the north of Scotland and one thing led to another and I pressed the buy button on a Thomann 600G. For what it cost it doesn't matter much if it is not the best thing ever. I can always repurpose the case.
Just need to wait for the new instrument to arrive and give it a try out. It looks similar to the Elkhart branded ones Vincent Bach sell here - rose brass bell, same valve block. It gets decent reviews. I had the chance to buy one in a second hand shop for £80 last year. I should have just bought that one. I don't see many of the Chinese ones coming up for sale second hand so maybe they are keepers?
I will report back on what it's like when it arrives. A bit of an adventure! _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
I've had a couple of Chinese flugel stencil horns - in fact got them both at the same time to see what if any difference there was. They both seemed fine to me. I sold one only because I have no need for two, and one did seem a tad mellower and was cosmetically straighter so that's the one I kept. With a Denis Wick 4FL mouthpiece it sounds super mellow.
Looking at that Thomann 600G it looks like the same horn. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
For the price and what you get, they are disposable. I think you can get an idea of what and how a flugelhorn plays with little investment, and then decide if you might want something better.
You spend $150 of so for a new Chinese instrument, but you can get some great horns at more than fair prices right here in the marketplace as I'm sure you know.
I've never played a Chinese horn that I'd consider a high quality instrument, but for the cost of dinner for two you're not out much investment wise.
I've had a couple of Chinese flugel stencil horns - in fact got them both at the same time to see what if any difference there was. They both seemed fine to me. I sold one only because I have no need for two, and one did seem a tad mellower and was cosmetically straighter so that's the one I kept. With a Denis Wick 4FL mouthpiece it sounds super mellow.
Looking at that Thomann 600G it looks like the same horn.
How about the intonation. I have a Chinese made Hawk whose intonation is quite good. I've alsi noticed these Chinese horns rarely have smaller bores. Even the Thoumann seems like an anomaly at .433. Nice price, very temping.
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:13 am Post subject:
Hi Gordon.
I had the same question before and finally settled on finding a used Flugel from Trent Austin. Found one in Germany.
Great improvement over my Imperial Flugel. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
I've had a couple of Chinese flugel stencil horns - in fact got them both at the same time to see what if any difference there was. They both seemed fine to me.
How about the intonation.
Seems fine - the 3rd valve trigger helps. Just like with the trumpet it's mostly about the player. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
I certainly have my eye on this thread. Presumably the knock on Chinese flugelhorns is intonation related. I have a large bore Hawk that us quite good except for a 2cnd valve that sticks every now & then. Presumably that will be taken care of under its warranty. I might need a decent backup, & the price seems right. I take it the G in 600G stands for gold brass instead of yellow. Does that really make a difference?. Please keep us posted.
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:34 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the comments. Flugels are never that great with intonation anyway so remains to be seen. I will report back when it arrives and gets a test out. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
I have chexked this outfit out & there are apparently 2 very good reasons to discourage me from going forward with this. One is that PayPal credit doesn't do currency conversion. The other issue is that in spite of most Chinese flugelhorns having Large More Taper shanks, these flugelhorns take small taper. I have more money invested in mouthpieces than my current flugelhorn as it is. I would have to double that expense purchasing new mouthpieces. Time to make do with what I have.
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:28 pm Post subject:
Apparently my flugel is due here today, just as I head off for four days to somewhere I can't take it. I will need to wait till next week to give it a test run. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:30 am Post subject:
Looking forward to your report... I'm tired of fighting my Imperial flugel, and may invest in a Thomann myself. I got their 620 trumpet when I started my comeback two years ago - that must be more or less the equivalent of the 600 flugel, and cost about the same. It was very well made, with good valves, and played nicely in tune, if a bit stuffy. Well worth the money, and I sold it just the other day for the same amount I paid for it. _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 444 Location: Australia
Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject:
robbrand wrote:
I got their 620 trumpet when I started my comeback two years ago - that must be more or less the equivalent of the 600 flugel, and cost about the same. It was very well made, with good valves, and played nicely in tune, if a bit stuffy. Well worth the money, and I sold it just the other day for the same amount I paid for it.
I bought the Thomann TR-500GL (Strad copy - Gold brass bell) trumpet as a back-up horn, for the walk-around jazz gigs I sometimes do (just finished 4 days of them).
Excellent trumpet and paid for itself on the first day.
Those who 'bag' Chinese horns perhaps need to enlighten themselves a little more.
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:21 am Post subject:
robbrand wrote:
Looking forward to your report... I'm tired of fighting my Imperial flugel, and may invest in a Thomann myself. I got their 620 trumpet when I started my comeback two years ago - that must be more or less the equivalent of the 600 flugel, and cost about the same. It was very well made, with good valves, and played nicely in tune, if a bit stuffy. Well worth the money, and I sold it just the other day for the same amount I paid for it.
My flugel arrived slightly damaged so it is on its way back to them. No cost to me, but surprisingly they don't replace, just refund and ask you to reorder. I have not decided what to do yet.
Interestingly I am playing an imperial. DieterZ also plays on one and he has had intonation issues which I haven't - until a couple of weeks ago when I tried the Horntrader mouthpiece in it. Because it is so deep, has a fairly small throat and is sitting right on the end of the bach taper part of the shank my bottom and middle G are wildly out of interval - almost a semitone difference. Yet, on the correct taper and equally as deep mouthpiece it does not exhibit this problem. It shows you what an effect mouthpieces can have on an instrument. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Posts: 120 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:15 am Post subject:
My Imperial (1950s vintage) has been converted from high to low pitch. In addition, it has what seems to be a Yamaha receiver pipe. I suspect those factors may contribute to the intonation issues, exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't have a trigger so in-play adjustments aren't possible - you just have to lip it.
The sound is nice enough though! _________________ B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:36 am Post subject:
robbrand wrote:
My Imperial (1950s vintage) has been converted from high to low pitch. In addition, it has what seems to be a Yamaha receiver pipe. I suspect those factors may contribute to the intonation issues, exacerbated by the fact that it doesn't have a trigger so in-play adjustments aren't possible - you just have to lip it.
The sound is nice enough though!
OK, mine is low pitch. I think they had to make the leadpipe end longer to go from high to low pitch. I had a converted cornet that I had to get slightly deconverted as it was low on the pitch. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Southern U.S.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:47 am Post subject:
I've seen Chinese no-name flugels with the rose brass bells and the 3rd valve trigger listed in the area of $250 on ebay.
Then, I've also seen horns with the Allora and Austin Custom Brass names on them selling for a few hundred dollars more, but they look like the EXACT same horns. In fact, you can't buy one from Austin right now because they are saying that they come from China and are currently held up in customs.
It seems apparent that all these flugels are made by the same manufacturer in China, and then you have these enterprising people in the US who have their own names engraved on them, mark up the price and sell them as their own.
Am I wrong?
We already know that Lynn Nicholson has gotten an Asian manufacturer to make a horn to his specs and stamp his name on it. He promises to test every horn himself before allowing it to get into a customer's hands, but let's face it, if any of us bought a horn from a no-name manufacturer in China, wouldn't we have our own ability to play-test it and send it back if we got a bad one?
Who makes Mark Van Cleave's horns? Does he have his own manufacturing plant in Indiana? How about Warburton?
Joined: 24 Dec 2010 Posts: 2196 Location: Venice, CA & Paris, France
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:48 am Post subject:
oh, boy. this thread is heading for thread heaven _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com http://highdefinitionbigband.com
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