Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 27 Location: West Sacramento, California
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Pedal Tones: How do you do it?
I've been practicing strengthening my embouchure to Play below a low C while keeping the embouchure in tact. So far ive been practicing and attempting this for about two weeks. Is it supposed to take this long to perform a pedal tone correctly?
After I'm done, I take a 2 minute rest, then lip slur, rest, lead pipe buzz long tones, then I do regular long tones.
Last edited by Tyler Alexander on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Pedal tones are an extremely controversial topic in the trumpet world. Some guys swear by them, some say total waste of time.
There have to be 100s of threads on this topic. Have you tried searching through past pedal tones discussions here?
You'll see a range of helpers giving advice on what and how to play them or why to avoid them.
Also in your searching try looking up long tones and leadpipe playing, mouthpiece and free buzzing. These topics are equally controversial and there never is a resolution or consensus.
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 27 Location: West Sacramento, California
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
Pedal tones are an extremely controversial topic in the trumpet world. Some guys swear by them, some say total waste of time.
There have to be 100s of threads on this topic. Have you tried searching through past pedal tones discussions here?
You'll see a range of helpers giving advice on what and how to play them or why to avoid them.
Also in your searching try looking up long tones and leadpipe playing, mouthpiece and free buzzing. These topics are equally controversial and there never is a resolution or consensus.
Enjoy!!
Yes I do know those are controversial and yes I have looked up all of those. I just need tips on playing my first pedal notes.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject:
For first pedals I recommend playing low C and valving down to B. Then repeat this but instead of using the valve lip down to B. Repeat this chromatically downward until you play F# lipping down to F natural. Until you can do this without unusual lip contortions I wouldn't try to go much further. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
If you reallllllly want to start this endeavor, first maybe try bending the pitch.
Start by playing your low F# 1-2-3 and see if you can just relax your chops and bend the pitch to speak an F. Then try bending to an E etc etc
Then try using the correct corresponding fingers like 1 for pedal F and 1-2 for pedal E etc.
You should easily get down to low C#, then there is a "wall" for centering pedal C open. Which you can figure out with experimentation and manipulation.
Or you can just leave Pandora's box alone and just work on music and exercises in the practical range of the trumpet.
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject:
pedals are a lot of fun and they are good for you. too many players are afraid of them as if they are witchcraft. who knows, maybe they are.
you can bend notes down by relaxing the lips and you can achieve pedals the same way.
most of all, enjoy.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject:
To be fair, I've known lots of folks who play pedals that are probably counterproductive. When you reset or otherwise pull your lips apart, even if it can produce LOUD pedals into the double register, you're not likely getting the full benefit of the exercise, and could be doing harm. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
When you reset or otherwise pull your lips apart, even if it can produce LOUD pedals into the double register, you're not likely getting the full benefit of the exercise, and could be doing harm.
I have yet to hear anyone offer what I consider a convincing explanation as to why pedals are beneficial to any aspect of playing except getting better at playing pedals - this whole "play low to play high" thing continues to strike me as meaningless verbiage that people say because it sounds sort of catchy. "So and so does pedals and can play screaming high notes" isn't a convincing explanation to me. A genuine, biomechanical, physics-based explanation demonstrating why playing notes below low F# where your embouchure is behaving completely dissimilarly to what it does to play double C other than the fact that air is moving through the horn and your lips are engaged would be a convincing explanation.
I should add that at one time I worked on pedals a lot and my range didn't budge a half step, nor did various dysfunctionalities I experienced improve. What made my range improve was reworking the mechanics of how I play. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
My pedals practice are a modified version of the Boyd Hood Stamp exercises - gentle arpeggios from the middle register -> down to the pedal register -> up to the top part of my range -> and back down into the pedal range. These are played on both the mouthpiece and the horn as the beginning of my morning fundamentals.
I don't know if they've added any notes (I think mostly time and practice over the years have done that), but that isn't very high on my priorities. With consistent practice of these exercises, I have greater control of my sound, greater ease of playing, and don't ever worry about endurance. With consistent practice of pedals, my playing just works.
I can miss a morning fundamental session and things will be fine that day. If I miss a few or eliminate the pedals or mouthpiece playing for a few days, I have significantly less control of my sound, work much harder to produce it, and find myself perpetually beat up.
That may not be biomechanical or physics based, but common sense says if something works for you, do it (and the reverse).
Here's a great interview with Malcom McNabb. He talks about a lot of things, but points to the healthy approach provided by practicing Stamp (including pedals) as important in his continued growth as a player.
This is an argument that will never be resolved. Especially in an Internet forum.
If you think pedals are beneficial and you use them, they will be. Nobody will change your mind otherwise.
If you believe they are counterproductive and a waste of time, they will not serve you. Nobody will change your mind.
If you want to experiment with them, go for it. Find out for yourself.
I have tried them and can play them. There was about a two year period of my playing when I used pedals and double pedals daily. I've found I do get refreshed if used seldomly. But if I use them in regular practice I become dependent on them, like with any habit forming activity. And when I need a quick warm up or no warm up, or skip pedals for length of time, it takes more effort to get my playing back to a satisfactory level.
Never did I gain any more range from using pedals. Not one note. In fact I got into bad habits of pooching and puckering in my playable range and it had a negative response to my overall playing and flexibility.
These were MY findings, and yours may differ. Some will use the analogy of "cross training fitness" that other physical activities may require. But I think trumpet playing is not as much physical as it is mental. But reshaping your chops or manipulating your mouth and oral cavity to produce notes that don't exist on the trumpet are a waste of time.
It's all very personal, and everybody's needs and results are different. You will do no permanent damage, but you may end up wasting valuable, finite time.
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Pedal Tones: How do you do it?
Tyler Alexander wrote:
I've been practicing strengthening my embouchure to Play below a low C while keeping the embouchure in tact. So far ive been practicing and attempting this for about two weeks. Is it supposed to take this long to perform a pedal tone correctly?
After I'm done, I take a 2 minute rest, then lip slur, rest, lead pipe buzz long tones, then I do regular long tones.
1)close your lips! Gently! No pressure! And in such away that the bottom lip is slightly protruding. Then place the mouthpiece (mounted on horn, you behind it) in such away that the upper lip gently touches the bottom part of the rim! Got it? Lower lip thus just below rim!
2)blow gently - should result in upper lip lifting a little and some sort of sound will emerge. This whole operation is to be done gently!
3)sooner or later your efforts will produce a sound, the sound of the double pedal C
4)this accomplished you now are about to learn how to develop your ear in order to be able to go chromatically down to F#!
5)eventually you can blow these B:s A# A:s etc just like that!
Why on earth embark on an adventure like this? You might read a number of posts here advocating this or that.
One distinct advantage is that this relaxes your lips; however the main benefit is linked to developing your ability to (without much ado) jump between octaves, sluring etc; the full reason as to why is to be found in the BE method. Another story.
The usual pedals, the octave below low C will develop by themselves through the above -. but per se not that lip-building.
So this was my contribution. Take it or leave it _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Re the video with Shook: It should have a disclaimer. NO ACTUAL PEDAL TONES WERE PLAYED DURING THE VIDEO.
Shook at :31: That is the pedal F.
A pedal tone is a resonance of the instrument that can be played. The pitch center of the pedal for the first (and only) pedal, with the open valves, is around a B flat below low C.
Any note played between F and C sharp below low C are NOT pedal tones. These are simply "bent" notes. That is; bending of the resonant pitches of low C down to low F sharp. Again, not a pedal tone.
The advantage of pedal tone practice is HOW yo approach it. Like buzzing, it can be detrimental if approached in a counterproductive way.
Even practicing the instrument can be a detriment and impede progress if done in a particular way.
Shook 0:44: "First and foremost we are going to strengthen our embouchure"
If done correctly pedal tones require VERY little embouchure effort. These are not "strengthening" exercises, neither should they be. They are "coordination" and "skill" exercises, and when done correctly, require the least muscular involvement of any notes played. If you are using great effort on pedal notes you are not doing them productively.
Now the "note bending" involved in playing an F below low C may require some effort. But still more coordination than effort to the point of strengthening.
The rest of the video is him demonstrating forcing tones on non resonances with the free buzz, mouthpiece and finally the instrument.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:08 am Post subject:
My understanding is that, in the common vernacular, those notes that fall below the natural playing range are called pedals. If I'm not mistaken, this is the commonly agreed-to definition by all of the previous writers. No? Why confuse things? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:21 am Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
My understanding is that, [i]in the common vernacula[/I, ]those notes that fall below the natural playing range are called pedals. If I'm not mistaken, this is the commonly agreed-to definition by all of the previous writers. No? Why confuse things?
Darryl is right and so are you.
As Darryl pointed out, the true pedal notes are the fundamental tones of the harmonic series for each of the seven valve positions, which are the Pedal C through Pedal F#. But in trumpet-speak we refer to all the notes from the F below Low F# to the F# below Pedal C as being the Pedal Notes, and the notes the next octave lower as being the Double Pedal Notes, etc.
Also, I agree with Darryl that properly played pedal notes do not require much physical embouchure strength. As such, they don't really "strengthen" the embouchure. What they do is correct any embouchure deficiencies over time. Good pedal notes require a good, free, lip vibration. Practiced over time, pedal notes can help the embouchure automatically adjust and perfect itself. Also, when played in the manner advocated by Claude Gordon (holding the pedal note until all air is gone with an attempted crescendo as one runs out of air to really work the blowing muscles), pedal notes help develop tremendous strength in the blowing muscles while helping the player develop the correct habit of being able to blow hard while keeping the muscles of the soft palate, back of the tongue and vocal chord muscles completely relaxed (a habit that is required to play the extreme upper register).
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject:
"Bottoms Up"
Pedals Tones are an integral part of total development. You must achieve them gradually and approach them correctly. If not, you are better off not to play them at all. If properly practiced, Pedal Tones will develop a better vibration, giving you a bigger sound in all registers, enhance tonal placement and accuracy, relax the muscles and correct your embouchure formation by forcing more upper lip into the mouthpiece.
Clarke, Claude Gordon & Bill Knevitt believed first we must lay a solid foundation by playing low which includes the pedal register. How do we build range? From the Bottom Up!
There is not one, but actually three pedal registers. Within the pedal register there are three different feels, and notes that are in each of these registers feel very much alike. The first pedal register are notes from F below low C on down through D flat. The notes from F below low C on down through D flat are not on the the horn. You have to make them. Since these notes have the feel of bending a note flat, the correct way to develop the right "feel" is to bend tones flat. Play a low C and slur down to B natural, second valve. This establishes the pitch. Now play the same two notes without using any valves for B. (Bend C flat a half step.) Now continue down with the same idea, first using valves to establish the pitch, then bending the notes flat, using no valves. When you get down to low G, you will have played it as though it were a pedal tone. Now start on low B natural and continue down through low F sharp in the same manner. When you play low F sharp with the second valve, you will be playing it as though it were a pedal tone. Start on low B flat next, and continues down to pedal F. You will notice that the last two notes (B flat to F) are different in that there are no valve changes. To establish the pitch, we play an octave above first. You will also notice that pedal F is nothing more than a low B flat bent flat a perfect fourth, pedal E is a low A bent four notes flat, and so on. Play the octave above first to determine the pitch, then bend the notes into the pedals.
The second feel you must develop is for the pedal C (C below low C) down to pedal F sharp. These notes, being the fundamentals of the harmonic series of overtones, are on the horn. Thus they feel totally different from those of the first register. Your first pedal C will generally "pop out," but it will be extremely flat -- as much as 4 or 5 notes. Do not let this concern you, for this is the correct feel and approach. To try and play this note in tune at first would be the wrong approach. let it hang flat for a long time, weeks and even months, working for a big sound and vibration. It will automatically work itself up to pitch as you develop.
The third register, pedal F below pedal C on down are very easy. They are in tune, and it is a matter of time and practice in developing the big vibration necessary to play them. While I play to third pedal C, for the purpose of development it is not necessary to go any lower than second pedal C (two octaves below low C), because nothing further develops from this point
How to practice pedals:
Do not use different fingerings for the pedals. (low G 1-3, and low F sharp 1-2-3)
Do not roll your lips out in any way.
Do not push the lips forward in trying to produce a "loose" vibration.
How to bend notes flat:
Keep your wind moving.
Do not loosen your lip.
Think "aw" as you slur down.
Drop your jaw slightly. down.
To play your 1st Pedal C:
Play a low C with a full sound, and while doing so:
-Relax all your muscles
-Drop your jaw - slightly
-Think "AW"
-Keep your wind moving
-Keep the lips vibrating
-Slide the mouthpiece slightly higher on your upper lip
There's an accompanying audio file available "How to Develop Your Range To Third Pedal C" by Bill Knevitt. Please email bob_latorre@hotmail.com for more details _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
This is an argument that will never be resolved. Especially in an Internet forum.
If you think pedals are beneficial and you use them, they will be. Nobody will change your mind otherwise.
If you believe they are counterproductive and a waste of time, they will not serve you. Nobody will change your mind.
If you want to experiment with them, go for it. Find out for yourself.
I have tried them and can play them. There was about a two year period of my playing when I used pedals and double pedals daily. I've found I do get refreshed if used seldomly. But if I use them in regular practice I become dependent on them, like with any habit forming activity. And when I need a quick warm up or no warm up, or skip pedals for length of time, it takes more effort to get my playing back to a satisfactory level.
Never did I gain any more range from using pedals. Not one note. In fact I got into bad habits of pooching and puckering in my playable range and it had a negative response to my overall playing and flexibility.
These were MY findings, and yours may differ. Some will use the analogy of "cross training fitness" that other physical activities may require. But I think trumpet playing is not as much physical as it is mental. But reshaping your chops or manipulating your mouth and oral cavity to produce notes that don't exist on the trumpet are a waste of time.
It's all very personal, and everybody's needs and results are different. You will do no permanent damage, but you may end up wasting valuable, finite time.
this is a good discussion. i agree with the claude gordon camp. i wouldn't say pedals have done anything for my high register. they are more for contributing to control and overall resonance.
if they did nothing they are some harmless fun.
where they are particularly good is as a baseline for relaxation. this is the easiest register in which to maintain muscular relaxation while playing. if your chops are getting weary or stiff you can blow some pedals to calm them down. becoming familiar with relaxation and fluidity is a step towards being a little more relaxed when playing the normal registers. this is worth something as far as endurance.
the pedals are good as the beginning of the warm up routine. this would be for players who see the value of starting practice low in register and relaxed. there are many who feel it's best to push the warm up register as high as they can get it, as training for commercial playing. there are of course many ways to do anything. when confronted by sharp divisions go with what resonates with you.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject:
My "set point" if I just practice Flexibilities and Clarkes and play on whatever show I am on is a good strong F# above High C with a nearly as strong G above High C. And then my obtainable volume of sound rapidly diminishes on the G#, A and Bb, and playing anything higher is virtually impossible unless I am very fresh (and the wind is blowing in the right direction).
When I also practice the Part 1 (Pedal Note) and Part 2 (High Note) exercises from Claude's Systematic Approach book daily, my range starts steadily creeping up. Back in 2005 when I made sure to do the exercises close to every day, after about seven or eight months I was playing full power Double C's and often reaching the G above Double C in my Part 2 exercises.
At times when I've experimented and just done the Part 2 (High Note) exercises, my range has creeped up to a full power Double A with a "wish I hadn't tried" pipsqueak of a Double C and then stagnated at that point. So it's clear to me the Pedal Note exercises (done properly) contribute much to my extreme upper register.
Note that it's not just playing Pedal Note exercises that helps my extreme range so much - it's doing them the CG way and really working the blowing muscles that does it.
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
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