Seeking advice on embouchure and endurance (with videos)

JohnOlek · New Member Joined: 08 Apr 2017 Posts: 7

Background Information

I started playing trumpet when I was in 6th grade, took lessons throughout middle school and high school, then continued playing through college but didn't keep up with lessons.

When I first started, I was using a Bach 7C and played with a ton of mouthpiece pressure. It never became a problem for me in my middle school band.

In 8th grade, I got braces and had to completely change my embouchure because mouthpiece pressure does not work with braces.

After a couple of years with braces, I had almost gotten back to the range I had before (around a D above the staff). Then I got the braces off and found out my new embouchure didn't work anymore.

It took another couple of years before I got back to where I had been with braces.

Over time, I played with progressively larger Bach mouthpieces. I went from the 7C to a 5C to a 3C, which I played on for most of high school, and then I switched to a 1.5C at some point (I honestly don't remember when).

I've never felt like I've had decent endurance, especially playing anything above the staff. When I first get the trumpet out, I can pretty easily play up to a D or E above the staff, but if I play a simple melody for 15 or 20 measures (e.g. a verse to a church hymn), I would have trouble ending on an A above the staff.

Current

I've never played consistently after college. I'll start playing again for a few weeks, get discouraged for a variety of reasons, then stop. This has happened a number of times over the last 10 years or so (I'm 31 now), but I want this time to be different.

I've currently been back into trumpet for about a month of consistent, daily practice. I've been playing long tones in the morning and then in the evening I work on some of the exercises in this embouchure bootcamp PDF I found online: http://www.bandworld.org/pdfs/EmbouchureBootCampTrumpet_Fogderud.pdf

I play through the warmups, stretch exercises, lip slurs, single and double tonguing exercises, and technical exercises. The scale exercises at the end are actually too difficult for me with my awful endurance.

Embouchure Issues?

I'm wondering if there's something fundamentally wrong with my embouchure. To me it feels like I play with a lot of focus on my upper lip. I've read other posts here about people who say they kind of "anchor" the mouthpiece on their upper lip, and how this leads to terrible endurance/range. Their experiences sound very similar to mine.

When I have tried things like the "pencil trick", it's never seemed useful to me because it seems to engage lower lip muscles, which are not muscles I feel like I'm using when I play.

If I do try to anchor the mouthpiece on my lower lip, my tone is terrible and it feels even worse than before.

Videos

I know it's way easier to see what's going on with videos, so I recorded myself playing some of the exercises from that embouchure bootcamp PDF with my phone (please forgive the fact I recorded them vertically). I also included one video of me trying what I'm calling lower lip dominant lip slurs at the end.

I blurred out my face to make it easier to focus on my embouchure and also because I think I look really goofy when I play and I'm self conscious about it. So sue me.

Here are the videos. The playlist is in the order I played things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8kcSiTHK4E&list=PLJDAFXq5icCNC_2DwykyeZGKC3KJkBQqd

Any advice?

I would be really grateful for any advice from the community. First off, I should mention that I signed up for trumpet lessons and have my first one on Wednesday, so we can get that out of the way.

Other than that, if you see anything I'm obviously doing wrong, or have suggestions for better ways to practice or things I could change, I would really appreciate it!

Harrys · Regular Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 24

In my limited experience and knowledge, I will say that too much pressure will kill your endurance. It did mine. I also found that the wrong mp will do the same. Reducing pressure is a conscience effort. I have to constantly remind myself to ease up on my grip to reduce mp pressure. I also had issues with playing an A above the staff at the end of a song, but practice, practice and more practice helped that, along with pressure reduction. I can now end a song with a strong B, a medium C, or sometimes a decent D. Hth

GeorgeB · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:21 am Post subject:

If you are starting lessons it would be wise to take any advice you get here with a grain of salt. Your teacher will be working one on one with you and will be in the best position to put you on the right track. Go with that.

And, by the way, your not all that bad. Good luck with the teacher.
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JohnOlek · New Member Joined: 08 Apr 2017 Posts: 7

dstdenis · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:40 am Post subject:

I think you're doing well, esp. since you're only a month into your comeback. There's a danger in remembering what we could do before, after many years of playing, and trying to pick up right where we left off. Give yourself time to redevelop your skills and fitness.

Endurance and range are important, but so are things like playing with a good sound, accuracy, good sense of rhythm, and musical style. So it's a good idea to set goals for yourself in all of these areas, and allow yourself a reasonable amount of time to make progress. Sometimes we have to slow down to go faster.

A few suggestions:

1. Play some music in addition to the drills and exercises, and be expressive. This will challenge your technique in ways that exercises won't, and it will exercise your musicality too.

2. Don't wear yourself out with too much practice. Allow plenty of time for rest and recovery so you stay fresh and strong.

3. I've found I gain more strength and endurance on challenging material if I play it in short chunks with frequent rest, rather than long stretches of continuous playing, which wears me down. It's counterintuitive, because it seems like playing long stretches would be the key to developing endurance. Not always, though. Try practicing shorter segments with plenty of rest in between each segment and see if your endurance doesn't improve.

4. Join a community band of some type, if you can. It's fun, it can highlight the areas of your playing that need work, and it will help keep you motivated to continue redeveloping your skills.

Good luck!
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JohnOlek · New Member Joined: 08 Apr 2017 Posts: 7

Thanks for the feedback, dstdenis!

JohnOlek · New Member Joined: 08 Apr 2017 Posts: 7

Just wanted to give a brief update on my progress in case anyone is interested. I had my first lesson and it went really well. My teacher had some really good suggestions right away and clearly really knows her stuff.

One of her suggestions was to get the Charles Colin book Advanced Lip Flexibilities for Trumpet, and I'm really glad she did! Colin's introduction talks a lot about things I feel like I've been hearing about for a long time, specifically how to shape your air into different vowel sounds based on range (e.g. ahh for low register, eee for high notes).

Even though this idea wasn't new to me, the book talks in detail about how to place your tongue in order for it to work. Somehow I'd never tried the strategy he describes before, and it actually made a huge difference right away, much to my surprise. A lot of things, including lip slurs and my upper range, feel a lot more natural now. I've expanded my upper range by a couple of notes already, and I don't feel tired the same way I used to.

It's clear that I still have a long way to go, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing too much more changing to my style or even working through this book without a teacher. So I guess the lesson here is the same as it's ever been: if at all possible, sign up for lessons.

TKSop · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:56 am Post subject:

Great stuff - Colin's lip flexibilities should be in every players library.

If you feel like you've made a breakthrough in how you understand what you're doing and it's had a positive effect, simply keep it up!
Now that you've got the concept, keep practicing those exercises daily and build that knowledge into your subconscious habits so that when you want to play music, your natural response for range is to play it that way.
Gradually (!) work up into the exercises that take the pitch a bit higher (but don't overdo it - either in trying to go too high too soon, or trying to do too much of it in a given practice session or day).

Three obvious points that should never be forgotten:
1) Don't neglect to practice other skills too
2) During a practice session - rest as much as you play.
3) Build up, don't tear down - don't practice on tired chops and if possible try to avoid reaching the point where things stop working, over-exertion almost never has positive consequences.

Arjuna · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject:

Overall you are on the right track. Here are some things to consider.
The embouchure is a sympathetic response to the air.
Breathe naturally taking a full comfortable breath using the "O" sound on the inhalation and a "Hoo" sound on the exhalation. Use the "Ha" sound for the lower register and a "Hee" sound for the upper register.
Start your day with Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing 3 minutes. Listen for resonance in the sound.
I would focus on the Irons book. Read the entire book before doing the exercises.
Practice in shorter practice sessions in the 20-30 minute range. Rest 1 hour between sessions.
Rest as much as you play. Take the horn off the face every few fingerings.
Rest a few minutes between exercises.
Practice Caruso's 6 note exercise 1-2 times per day.
Practice slowly.
Practice softly.
Think music.

Arjuna · Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject:

From watching and hearing you play I would like to suggest trying a few mouthpieces. The Curry 3C dot and a Curry 10 1/2C both mouthpieces are very efficient. I would start with the Curry 3C dot. The issue may be related with too large a cup diameter and too large a cup volume. The Curry 3C dot is a great all around mouthpiece and any obvious issues should manifest themselves if they are there. The Curry 10 1/2C is great for all around playing as well and produces a rich sound and is easy to play. I actually think they should start all students out on a 10 1/2C size. It is easier to develop from that size and it is also much easier to see who needs a larger cup diameter and who does not. The 10 1/2C is a great foundation mouthpiece much like the Curry 3C dot.

Robert P · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596

My first seat-of-the-pants reaction was that your placement is high. Is that the way you've always played? What happens if you try bringing the mouthpiece down to a placement closer to 50/50?

I would experiment with horn angle and jaw opening. Another impression I get is your approach is a bit passive. Try putting more gusto into it, support the sound more.

Btw, if you're really concerned with privacy, you've got your full name on your channel and a readily searchable Facebook presence.
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TKSop · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 am Post subject:

TKSop · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:15 am Post subject:

dstdenis · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:22 am Post subject:

Glad to hear that your lesson went well. Sorry to hear that your foray into community band didn't pan out--maybe there are other groups in your area that would provide a better experience.

I'm kinda surprised that your teacher recommended Colin Advanced Lip Flexibilities, given that you're just starting your comeback. That's a really advanced book. I mean, slurring up and down over 2-1/2 octaves for two lines of exercise in one breath. Whew!

IMHO, you should not change mouthpiece or mouthpiece placement based upon advice from TH. That could leave you lost at sea. You have a teacher, and she sees you play in-person; work with her on these things.
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Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Rereading your first post, and it's a story I've heard countless times.

Started on a 7C...so,e teacher told you that you needed a bigger mouthpiece. You moved to a 5C then 3C then 1.5C...then you quit.

Never had good endurance or much high range.

Buddy, probably your equipment is too damn big. Want to make life a lot easier? I'd start moving to something around a 10.5 C

This whole idea of using such HUGE mouthpieces is a new phenomenon. It's a combination of bad advice from ignorant band directors, music store sales people, and lazy trumpet teachers.

There is no logic behind the idea that we all need to follow the same suit with mouthpiece selection. We are all built different, different dental stuff, lip size and intrusions, different breathing habits, etc.

It sounds like you might benefit from at least exploring playing so,etching smaller. I play on something probably around a Bach 12 (maybe smaller) and still play classical stuff, church gigs, brass quintet, solo work. And there's no mouthpiece policeman there checking what size my rim is....so it really doesn't matter to anybody but me.

TKSop · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:57 am Post subject:

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

JohnOlek · New Member Joined: 08 Apr 2017 Posts: 7

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

TKSop · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:06 am Post subject:

razeontherock · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:19 am Post subject:

Hi John! My main reaction to your vid and posts are to welcome you to TH, and encourage you that your sound indicates you are doing something right. Room to improve on all fronts, which you are keenly aware of, and exactly why you are here. That's one of the better uses of the site, IMHO.

Different teachers focus on different things. All we can really tell is if our effort is rewarded enough to continue, or not. I would encourage you to embrace the teacher you're paying, and if you reach a frustrating dead-end don't quit, nor change anything too drastically. Only then look into a different teacher, who may be able to bring you further.

For me, that has meant discovering the ideas of Doc Reinhardt, because he accounted for all the physical variations people have. It has become obvious to me one of the reasons some get nothing from the same teacher others find great success with, is a mis-match in this area. So stick that concept on the back-burner, hope it's never needed, and add the grain of salt that recognizes every dedicated sub-forum here has its devotees.

I would draw your attention to two aspects of your playing:

Breathing. Do you inhale through the center of your lips, disturbing everything and drying things out? Can't tell from the video.

"Lower lip dominant." What is the purpose? As an exercise, sometimes doing something un-natural has specific benefit but isn't intended to be incorporated into our daily playing.