Gap and Playing sharp

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

I originally posted this in horns, but anyway, So i've noticed that my mouthpieces seem to go all the way in to the receiver and may be right up against the top of the leadpipe, therefore virtually no gap. Would this condition cause the horn to play sharp? Anybody experience this personally?
The pieces aren't loose but i had a problem with the receiver when i bought the horn used, i think it had been bent, so I brought it to dillons, Vladimir did something to it, not sure what but after that the pieces fit fine. Again it seems like my mouthpiece goes all the way in to the pipe. I know that makes it shorter per say, but would it make it sharp. I don't have another trumpet to do a side by side comparison.

Any thoughts?

thanks

tom

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:25 am Post subject: Gap and playing sharp

Hello Tom,
Well, physically the horn could be that much shorter, allowing a little rise in pitch, but your ear would probably tell you to compensate for that extra 1/16th or so. What the gap does do is change slotting of certain notes. I think that each player/horn experiences that differently. I personally like my gap 1/8th of an inch. Any more, and my horns feel stuffy and un-centered. I think that each brand has their standard.
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cheiden · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:57 am Post subject:

If a horn is uniformly sharp then it's easy to compensate by pulling out the tuning slide. Do you mean that just certain notes are sharp?

And it's really easy to see if the gap is a factor by adding paper or tape to the shank.
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deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

Billy B · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:43 am Post subject:

Changing the gap changes the nodal points. Experiment by using Teflon plumbers tape on your mouthpiece shank to increase the gap.
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Bill Bergren

cheiden · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:11 am Post subject:

Christian K. Peters · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Gap

Hello all,
Billy has the right idea if your mouthpiece is butting up to the venturi of the leadpipe. I would measure the gap before you added the tape just to make sure you don't have a gap. Sometimes, the receiver just rounds out, creating a poor fit. I have had to replace the receivers on at least two of my horns over the last 20 years because of use issues. Once you measure the gap on one horn, you might measure the gaps on the horns if you have others. Start from a common baseline if you can and then add tape/paper to increase if you need to. I have used a piece of aluminum from a pop can before to create a sleeve. Can't do much if you want to lessen the gap though.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

cheiden · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:19 am Post subject:

I have only a single mouthpiece that seems to have no gap on my Bb. When I got it sleeved I was able to play with the gap a learn how it changes the characteristics of the horn.

I don't recall that any particular gap (or none) lead to the entire horn being sharp. Again, I'd have just fixed that with the main tuning slide. What I did find is that the blow and response varied a lot. No gap was really bad. Too much also played lousy. There's was a clear sweet spot.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

feedback@stomvi-usa · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject:

Might help.

http://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

Best, Jon
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Bflatman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720

Am I missing something, most trumpeters pull the tuning slide out because all the notes are sharp until you do. I would not consider an instrument to be faulty if you need to pull the slide out to play in tune.

If all your notes are sharp then do what everyone else does and pull the slide out to tune the instrument.

I see this as normal and expected.

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

Do you play Schilke? I've found their receivers and mouthpieces to be super finicky. I think they are designed to have zero gap.

Schilke mouthpieces are longer than others. And I found playing non schilke mouthpieces on Schilke trumpets to be kinda problematic. Lots of mouthpieces and backbores I have wobble and don't seat right in Schilke receivers.

Reeves Sleeves fixed all that for me. On all my horns. I use a 4.5 on most of my horns but my last Schilke trumpet, I just couldn't get the gap right.

In short, I'd answer, yes gap will effect intonation. Sometimes sharp sometimes flat, sometimes uniformly sometimes sporadically.

There seems to be no right or wrong answer for what gap works for a certain player or why it works or doesn't work. Just need to experiment and find what's the best fit.

I'll never NOT have another mouthpiece with out Sleeves, or Stomvi's Cuplars.

razeontherock · Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:00 am Post subject:

Lots of ways to play-test to dial in ideal gap; enough to drive you batty! Stomvi has the right idea, go by the horns intonation, to itself, across octaves. I find I can do this most quickly by first tuning to concert A, comparing all my octaves and switching sleeves til I get that much the best I can, then with A#, then G#. Then all my D's ( all concert pitches)

The real trick to this is keeping your eyes closed while you play each note perfectly centred, only then look at the tuner, and don't compensate! Be an objective scientist, not a musician.

I'm not sure I've ever found a gap adjustment to help, beyond dialing in my concert A's, I'm just ocd with my intonation and want to be sure. And if you find two different gap sizes to yield no difference in intonation? Test for which gives the most even sound quality across scales, again w/o compensating via your playing.

I find that once I dial in gap this way, that I've also arrived at the best gap for all the other ways of play testing for it; best range, playable resistance, slotting, tone, etc. And if what we're doing is aligning nodal points, then it should work this way!