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Left-hand grip



 
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:29 am    Post subject: Left-hand grip Reply with quote

Hi All -- Rich recently reminded us of how Doc emphasized the importance of a firm left-hand grip. Also important, I think, is what type of grip. I recently have been experimenting with the "pistol" grip, and find that it raises my horn angle slightly, which transfers some weight to the bottom lip, thus taking some weight off the top lip. Any thoughts on grip type?
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pistol grip ? Does that mean your forefinger is in the ring ? Interesting but it wouldn't work for me. I have always used middle finger in ring with two up and two down. But, whatever works I guess.
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, "pistol" grip means index finger wrapped around the valve casing above the third-valve slide, the other three fingers wrapped around the valve casing below the third-valve slide, thumb around the valve casing above where the bell section enters the valve casing. I've attached a link to a photo of Maynard using this grip, but gave the description in case the link doesn't work.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/canadian-jazz-musician-maynard-ferguson-performs-onstage-at-the-park-picture-id577087159
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pistol grip can also be modified to put the middle finger in the ring if you need it. I probably play that way more often than the Maynard pistol grip in the pic - but it depends on the chart, right? Today I got to blow lead again on "The Jazz Police" - Gordon Goodwin, so, guess what?

Then again, Wayne Bergeron hooks his little finger under the 3rd slide all the time, so what do I know? Think it would help me get that Double B? LOL
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and then there's this:

https://youtu.be/v42j7xwOaIw

Actually I see Lynn playing with the middle finger in the ring now most of the time.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type3B wrote:
For me, "pistol" grip means index finger wrapped around the valve casing above the third-valve slide, the other three fingers wrapped around the valve casing below the third-valve slide, thumb around the valve casing above where the bell section enters the valve casing. I've attached a link to a photo of Maynard using this grip, but gave the description in case the link doesn't work.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/canadian-jazz-musician-maynard-ferguson-performs-onstage-at-the-park-picture-id577087159




I would agree 100% that this picture shows what Doc called the "pistol grip." It looks pretty firm, too.

The main thing Doc harped on about the firm left-hand grip is to always use the same grip every single time you pick up your horn. That sustains our contact with the four legs of the inner embouchure and allows consistent performance. If you use a different grip throughout your playing (some guys use two or three per tune) and have endurance problems, those difficulties could be alleviated by adopting one grip and using that from this point forward.

The "firm" part of the left hand grip keeps popping up for me as one of the most important things I can do to prevent fatigue and bad habits from creeping in. That one simple thing goes a long way toward permitting my chops to improve and flourish.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the grip thing is very individual. I could never really play with the pistol grip when I tried it. I'd play with too little pressure and the mouthpiece would bounce around everywhere.

The main thing is that the grip should be solid and comfortable. I saw Lynn Nicholson hold the bottom of the valve casing like he does here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42j7xwOaIw . Probably wouldn't work for me but obviously works for him there.

But, for myself? I like to just hold it the standard way (at this moment in time, at least).

By the way, that's one of the best pictures of Maynard's chops I've ever seen.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resurrecting this....

Recently discovered that the grip I'd been using may well not be the best for me.
I'd been playing with one finger below the third slide and the rest above - this encouraged a higher horn angle than was necessarily ideal for me, and encouraging more pressure on the top lip in the process. I *think* the split grip I was using was encouraging the wrist to stay straight (otherwise it'd tense).

I wonder if there's any correlation between likely (no hard rules I'm certain) ideal hand grips and embouchure types (or at very least, jaw alignments?) or whether this is 100% personal?
For example, might a IV be more likely to thrive with my previous grip than a IIIB?

Are there any tests that help suggest whether a given grip is ideal for a given player?
For example, would we be looking for our left-hand grip to take all of the weight and produce a fairly light right-hand grip, or would that be a sign of another sub-optimal grip?
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Resurrecting this....

Recently discovered that the grip I'd been using may well not be the best for me.
I'd been playing with one finger below the third slide and the rest above - this encouraged a higher horn angle than was necessarily ideal for me, and encouraging more pressure on the top lip in the process. I *think* the split grip I was using was encouraging the wrist to stay straight (otherwise it'd tense).

I wonder if there's any correlation between likely (no hard rules I'm certain) ideal hand grips and embouchure types (or at very least, jaw alignments?) or whether this is 100% personal?
For example, might a IV be more likely to thrive with my previous grip than a IIIB?

Are there any tests that help suggest whether a given grip is ideal for a given player?
For example, would we be looking for our left-hand grip to take all of the weight and produce a fairly light right-hand grip, or would that be a sign of another sub-optimal grip?


So you were putting your pinky below the 3rd valve slide?

Excellent question about the grip style and type correlation. I honestly don't know, but I can say as a IV, I prefer to play with all fingers on my left hand atop the third valve slide and the ring finger in the hook. I can also play with the pistol grip with slight comfort, but it's not my first choice.

I think there are other factors that determine grip besides embouchure type too, like hand structure and all kinds of other physical factors as well.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it impossible to get a firm left hand grip when I need to operate both first and third valve slides while playing. Any ideas?
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amuk
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it is possible. Triggers might be a help but----
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A long time ago I moved to a split grip - two fingers below the 3rd valve slide, two fingers above with my middle finger in the ring. Sometimes when I'm doing a brass quintet thing I might opt for the traditional grip, but I mostly use that split grip these days, and I don't have any issues operating either the 1st or 3rd valve slides.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I find it impossible to get a firm left hand grip when I need to operate both first and third valve slides while playing. Any ideas?


I think it has to do with hand size. I guaranty, there's no problem there.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to operate the 1st and 3rd slides at the same time, and I find it impossible to keed my left palm touching the valve casing. I need to hold the instrument with the ends of my fingers in order to be able to work the slides. A firm grip when I am at work is ilusive.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I need to operate the 1st and 3rd slides at the same time, and I find it impossible to keed my left palm touching the valve casing. I need to hold the instrument with the ends of my fingers in order to be able to work the slides. A firm grip when I am at work is ilusive.


What situation could there possibly be where both need to be extended at the same time? I've never found a note that required more than one or the other. A little reminder that trumpets didn't used to have movable slides. And then when they did, the third one was enough.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play 2nd trumpet in a pro orchestra. Intonation is not easy and I need to use both slides, not usually together, but alternating between the two. If Im just practicing i ignore the 1st valve slide, but at work I can' t do that. In order to have my hand ready to operate either slide, a firm grip without ha ving to change my hand position for me is impossible. I'm not looking for condescending remarks. I believe that the only way to keep a firm grip would be to ha ve pitch finder with a trigger mechanism, which would probably degrade the horns playing characteristics.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Trumpet, Bb and C, I use a split Left Hand grip, 2 up, 2 down and middle finger for 3rd slide, but on my Flugel, that doesn't work as well. The natural grip ends up being more of a modified "Pistol Grip", index above 3rd pipe, and 3 below gripping 3rd valve slide. I recently had a 3rd valve trigger added to my old Getzen Flugelhorn and this grip doesn't work as well as it used to. I am forcing myself to use a 2 up, 2 down grip in order to use my ring finger to press the trigger, which seems easier with the position of trigger. This is somewhat more comfortable and a little more firm, but different. Gonna take some getting used to!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
I play 2nd trumpet in a pro orchestra. Intonation is not easy and I need to use both slides, not usually together, but alternating between the two. If Im just practicing i ignore the 1st valve slide, but at work I can' t do that. In order to have my hand ready to operate either slide, a firm grip without ha ving to change my hand position for me is impossible. I'm not looking for condescending remarks. I believe that the only way to keep a firm grip would be to ha ve pitch finder with a trigger mechanism, which would probably degrade the horns playing characteristics.


This firm grip idea is new to me - I just happened on this thread, and have been experimenting with it. (And am surprised at how much difference it makes!) I also use my slides a lot, and find this challenging. But, what grip do you use for your left hand? With the "split grip" (two fingers below the third slide, middle finger in the ring, index finger on the valve casing), I can keep my lowest two fingers firm without interfering with the slides. (It feels unfamiliar, but overcomeable, I think.)

Edit to say: Also, I suspect I can get around the issue by using my first slide more and third less - just using the first slide for Ds and C#s. I have an easier time keeping my fingers firm and thumb movable than only certain fingers firm.
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