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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:43 am Post subject: Making a small shallow mouthpiece in tune like a large one |
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I was your typical Bach 1 and 1 & 1/2C player in college. Intonation was always good. now 35 years later i'm a Curry 00 size player. Intonation is still OK, but there is a definite difference, in my bach days i tended to be flatter, based on my tuning slide postion, these days i'm a little sharper based on the slide position, granted two different trumpets are involved, My old horn was a bach 37, now i play a Conn Vintage One, but to get to my point about all this, can Shallow, small diameter mouthpieces be made to play in tune like larger cup and diameter mouthpieces. Is it a length adjustment, bowl type? Or is it just the inherent characteristics of the id and bowl size, backbore that makes this happen?
thanks
tom |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Tighter backbores, smaller inside IDs, and shallower cups, by their nature blow high on the pitch. Just the nature of the beast.
I'd rather be sharp, than out of tune
Seriously though...learning to play with less tension, and "blowing down" on the pitch has helped me with playing to sharp and having to open my tuning slide too much.
When I had the slide out super far my in the staff Bs and Ds and Ebs and Es were super flat. Especially on Benge trumpets. Learning to relax, blow down on the pitch and be ok with being a little sharp at times and using slides to adjust corrected these issues. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Hello Krell
Do you use as much lip intrusion or protrusion in the shallow mpc as you do with a C type cup? If so, this can be a explanation to your question, rather than looking for inherent characteristics of the mpcs. The material always work in conjunction with physics, physiology, technic etc.
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm reading the post wrong, but why is it something you're even thinking about? Pull the tuning slide the requisite amount and be done with it.
Shallow mouthpieces are going to blow differently and there are going to be other intonation considerations - it's just something you deal with and move forward. At the end of the day, no one is going to care where your tuning slide is - they are going to care if it sounds good and is in tune. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Tuning is subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.
Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with.
Last edited by Benge.nut on Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | At the end of the day, no one is going to care where your tuning slide is - they are going to care if it sounds good and is in tune. |
+1. There isn't a "correct" tuning slide setting--we should be able to play in tune within a range of tuning slide positions. We just choose the position that makes it easier to play in tune using our air, tongue position and embouchure the way we want to use them. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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dstdenis wrote: | trickg wrote: | At the end of the day, no one is going to care where your tuning slide is - they are going to care if it sounds good and is in tune. |
+1. There isn't a "correct" tuning slide setting--we should be able to play in tune within a range of tuning slide positions. We just choose the position that makes it easier to play in tune using our air, tongue position and embouchure the way we want to use them. |
Throwing your tuning slide out too far changes the blow and scale of the horn. You're going to end up with very flat pitches as I mentioned earlier.
Learning how to correct tension to compensate for a smaller piece is the better answer. Relaxing the chops, throat and using less air will bring your pitch down. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Taking a slightly different tack to where this thread has gone before (apologies if this seems overly obvious)...
Smaller cups (shallower and/or smaller ID) and tighter backbores, at least for me, make pitch bending a lilttle more difficult and a more deliberate process.
If the horns natural tuning tendencies aren't ideal (no trumpet is going to be perfect, but some tend to be better than others) then all else being equal I find it easier to subconsciously muscle the pitch around a little bit with a bigger piece and/or more open piece than a smaller/tighter one.
In this kind of scenario, it could be that the bigger piece gives us the illusion of being better in tune because it makes it easier (and with less conscious intervention) for us to produce better-in-tune results.
I tend to find that proper air support is more vital when playing on smaller and tighter equipment too - in much the same way, I have to be more conscious of it in order to get the most out of it.
Ofcourse everyone else is right - like any other tool, you have to learn its tendencies and learn to use them to your advantage (and overcome them where necessary).
It almost goes without saying that the tuning slide needs to go where it needs to go - attempting to conform to where you think it *should* be is only going to result in contortions and wasted effort (or in short: inefficiency). |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:02 am Post subject: |
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I think perhaps i worded the question incorrectly, it was more of wondering out loud thing. I think it was more of just a physics question. I had read somewhere the some mouthpiece manufacturers are better than others at making mouthpieces "easier" to play in tune based on things they employ and adjust during manufacturing. Kind of like how Curry shortens the TF and TC shanks to help with tuning. I use very little lip intrusion now with the pieces i play, but ofcourse used more when i played the big stuff.
I play different now, than i used to, granted in school i was playing 6 hours a day at least. today, i barely have time to get through my variation on the Adam Routine, but its enough to keep getting gigs in the R & B bands i play in. Anyway, thanks for the interesting comments and thoughts.
regards,
tom |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | Tuning isn't subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.
Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with. |
i agree with all of the above, Benge !! thanks for the input.
regards,
tom |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | Seriously though...learning to play with less tension, and "blowing down" on the pitch has helped me with playing to sharp and having to open my tuning slide too much. |
I know where you're coming from here, but it depends to some extent on the player, their embouchure and what "tension" means to them.
I tend to think that sometimes how a player understands and interprets what they're told is just as important as what they're actually told - and so is what they feel they're applying vs what they're actually doing.
Case in point "play with less tension" said to the wrong player can cause problems...
I won't claim to be anything other than a peruser of the Reinhardt stuff, but reading there it appears that too little compression and opening the aperture too much is a particular problem for many IIIB players - if a particular player understands "tension" to mean keeping the aperture reasonably tight, then telling them to "play with less tension" could lead to the aperture opening too much and to an even larger tone and yet loss of ability in the high register.
As with many things, it seems that there's no substitute for lessons with a good teacher who knows what they're tallking about... who can see how the student responds to a certain instruction and can correct that response if it's not the right one.
Quote: | When I had the slide out super far my in the staff Bs and Ds and Ebs and Es were super flat. Especially on Benge trumpets. Learning to relax, blow down on the pitch and be ok with being a little sharp at times and using slides to adjust corrected these issues. |
In my experience this tends to be a problem with pulling the slide to compensate for sharp notes (often the G on top of the staff) sending other notes (especially that open E harmonic) very flat as a consequence - and ofcourse its easier to flatten pitches accurately (with slide use and/or alternative fingerings).
Playing in the center of the pitch tends to result in less of these sorts of problems - if you're playing high on the pitch (as many players do) then that might mean you have to consciously think of "blowing down" into the pitch (as you stated earlier) initially... if you're playing low on the pitch (which fewer players seem to, but they do exist) then the advice to blow down into the pitch is naturally very bad advice. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | dstdenis wrote: | trickg wrote: | At the end of the day, no one is going to care where your tuning slide is - they are going to care if it sounds good and is in tune. |
+1. There isn't a "correct" tuning slide setting--we should be able to play in tune within a range of tuning slide positions. We just choose the position that makes it easier to play in tune using our air, tongue position and embouchure the way we want to use them. |
Throwing your tuning slide out too far changes the blow and scale of the horn. You're going to end up with very flat pitches as I mentioned earlier.
Learning how to correct tension to compensate for a smaller piece is the better answer. Relaxing the chops, throat and using less air will bring your pitch down. |
Define "too far" - there's a range that is considered normal for how far the slide is out. I'd tend to think that the difference would be less than 1/4", in which case the scale is going to be fine. I mean heck - things can change that much and more in a wind ensemble due to how hot or cold it is where they are playing. What is a trumpet player going to do? Are they going to say, "Sorry - you'll have to deal with me being out of tune because if I push/pull the slide too far it's going to alter the blow and scale of my instrument." I think you'd have to pull to an almost extreme length for it to adversely affect things in that manner.*
I think we're discussing something that really doesn't need to be discussed - much ado about nothing.
* When I played for my sister's wedding, she had it in an old church where the pipe organ was built to a lower pitch standard - something like A=415. It was low. My tuning slide was pulled about 2" to compensate and although I got the job done, it made for an interesting time because the pitch was nowhere close to where my ear was using to hearing it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I've known a good number of successful players who play small and/or shallow gear that pull their tuning slides out much further than the 1/4"-3/8" you typically see. If everything else is working out I don't think there's any point in fighting it if that what's needed to be in tune. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9364 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Are you sharper throughout your range, or mainly just above the staff? I had the same problem years ago when using a Schilke 13A4a - the upper register went sharp, even with the tuning slide pulled correctly for the middle register. I had the throat enlarged slightly, with the side effect of making a bit more of the throat cylindrical, which cured the problem. Your mileage may vary. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Are you sharper throughout your range, or mainly just above the staff? I had the same problem years ago when using a Schilke 13A4a - the upper register went sharp, even with the tuning slide pulled correctly for the middle register. I had the throat enlarged slightly, with the side effect of making a bit more of the throat cylindrical, which cured the problem. Your mileage may vary. |
Same thing for me with a Schilke 14A4a. When I switched to the straight 14A4, the more open backbore drastically helped intonation throughout. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Making a small shallow mouthpiece in tune like a large o |
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KRELL1960 wrote: | Or is it just the inherent characteristics of the id and bowl size, backbore that makes this happen?
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Two words: GAP
If you have a reasonable scale, can use your tuning slide to get to pitch, and are in tune across all the octaves within your playable range, you are doing pretty well on this crazy plumbing. If you can't, optimizing your gap (in one way or another) may yield substantial improvement, and testing for that is the best way of 'dialing it in.'
It's also interesting what happens to intonation as you vary dynamics. I have taken to testing for this, being sure not to adjust for pitch, just to see what happens. The results have been eye-opening, to say the least, and have greatly informed my mpc. selections. |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Are you sharper throughout your range, or mainly just above the staff? I had the same problem years ago when using a Schilke 13A4a - the upper register went sharp, even with the tuning slide pulled correctly for the middle register. I had the throat enlarged slightly, with the side effect of making a bit more of the throat cylindrical, which cured the problem. Your mileage may vary. |
Actually i'm sometimes sharp in the staff, above the staff tends to be fine though. Though this is during the warm up stages of my day, I have a couple of copies of my pieces, i'm going to have them cut for sleeves and play with the gap and maybe i'll open one of them up a bit to see what happens. This could all just be tension though i'm thinking, because it goes away after i work out the chops a bit and they get loosened up. It never use to happen in the past at all, i would be ready to go with minimum warm up. Then again i wasn't playing as high back then, I'm mostly above the staff now for just about all the stuff i play, and i feel like i may be overblowing to keep up with the amplifiers. I think some middle and low registers work could be helpful, it's always the time factor, i'll have to squeeze it in somehow.
thanks again peoople for your input,
regards,
tom |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | Tuning isn't subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.
Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with. |
I understand and basically agree with what you say, but I think the last sentence goes too far. Sure, you have to play in tune with whatever ensemble you're playing with, 440 or otherwise, but I would not say targeting A=440 is a waste of time, as generally speaking it's the pitch most Western music uses as a baseline.
So am I going to clip a Snark tuner to my bell tomorrow night and doggedly adhere to A=440 regardless of what's happening in the ensemble? Of course not (in part because I don't have one😉), but I do think there is some value in using tuners, ESPECIALLY for students.
If I'm "in tune" according to a tuner, but everyone else is, let's say, a bit sharp, I'M the one out of tune...... but that probably goes without saying.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Benge.nut wrote: | Tuning isn't subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.
Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with. |
I understand and basically agree with what you say, but I think the last sentence goes too far. Sure, you have to play in tune with whatever ensemble you're playing with, 440 or otherwise, but I would not say targeting A=440 is a waste of time, as generally speaking it's the pitch most Western music uses as a baseline.
So am I going to clip a Snark tuner to my bell tomorrow night and doggedly adhere to A=440 regardless of what's happening in the ensemble? Of course not (in part because I don't have one😉), but I do think there is some value in using tuners, ESPECIALLY for students. If I'm "in tune" according to a tuner, but everyone else is, let's say, sharp, I'M the one out of tune.
Brad |
I edited my post. I meant to say tuning IS subjective. I think you gathered my statement was a typo.
Intonation in a group changes with a gust of wind, A/C turning on, number if people in the room. All kinds of stuff.
Most people can't hear the difference between A440 or A445 or A448 etc. Honestly I like to tune a bit higher on pitch, I think it's more colorful!! But you got my point, just adjust by ear in an ensemble |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Benge.nut wrote: | Tuning isn't subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.
Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with. |
I understand and basically agree with what you say, but I think the last sentence goes too far. Sure, you have to play in tune with whatever ensemble you're playing with, 440 or otherwise, but I would not say targeting A=440 is a waste of time, as generally speaking it's the pitch most Western music uses as a baseline.
So am I going to clip a Snark tuner to my bell tomorrow night and doggedly adhere to A=440 regardless of what's happening in the ensemble? Of course not (in part because I don't have one😉), but I do think there is some value in using tuners, ESPECIALLY for students.
If I'm "in tune" according to a tuner, but everyone else is, let's say, a bit sharp, I'M the one out of tune...... but that probably goes without saying.
Brad |
which snark do you use brad ? just curious, see lots of guys with the red one, of course that one doesn't pitch adjust for Bb. nevermind, just reread your message. you don't have one. HA! Your reply reminds me of sax guy i play with sometimes who whips out his strobo app by peterson, remarks about how in tune he is because the strobes don't move, meanwhile the rest of us are tuned to the piano.
regards,
tom |
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