Making a small shallow mouthpiece in tune like a large one

[deleted_user_680e93b]

I was your typical Bach 1 and 1 & 1/2C player in college. Intonation was always good. now 35 years later i'm a Curry 00 size player. Intonation is still OK, but there is a definite difference, in my bach days i tended to be flatter, based on my tuning slide postion, these days i'm a little sharper based on the slide position, granted two different trumpets are involved, My old horn was a bach 37, now i play a Conn Vintage One, but to get to my point about all this, can Shallow, small diameter mouthpieces be made to play in tune like larger cup and diameter mouthpieces. Is it a length adjustment, bowl type? Or is it just the inherent characteristics of the id and bowl size, backbore that makes this happen?

thanks

tom

[Benge.nut]

Tighter backbores, smaller inside IDs, and shallower cups, by their nature blow high on the pitch. Just the nature of the beast.

I'd rather be sharp, than out of tune

Seriously though...learning to play with less tension, and "blowing down" on the pitch has helped me with playing to sharp and having to open my tuning slide too much.

When I had the slide out super far my in the staff Bs and Ds and Ebs and Es were super flat. Especially on Benge trumpets. Learning to relax, blow down on the pitch and be ok with being a little sharp at times and using slides to adjust corrected these issues.

[JVL]

Hello Krell
Do you use as much lip intrusion or protrusion in the shallow mpc as you do with a C type cup? If so, this can be a explanation to your question, rather than looking for inherent characteristics of the mpcs. The material always work in conjunction with physics, physiology, technic etc.
Best

[trickg]

Maybe I'm reading the post wrong, but why is it something you're even thinking about? Pull the tuning slide the requisite amount and be done with it.

Shallow mouthpieces are going to blow differently and there are going to be other intonation considerations - it's just something you deal with and move forward. At the end of the day, no one is going to care where your tuning slide is - they are going to care if it sounds good and is in tune.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Benge.nut]

Tuning is subjective anyway. Depending on the room you're in, the kind of band, the players, there are lots of factors.

Staring at a needle and targeting A440 is a waste of time. Adjust by ear with who you are playing with.

[dstdenis]

[Benge.nut]

[TKSop]

Taking a slightly different tack to where this thread has gone before (apologies if this seems overly obvious)...

Smaller cups (shallower and/or smaller ID) and tighter backbores, at least for me, make pitch bending a lilttle more difficult and a more deliberate process.
If the horns natural tuning tendencies aren't ideal (no trumpet is going to be perfect, but some tend to be better than others) then all else being equal I find it easier to subconsciously muscle the pitch around a little bit with a bigger piece and/or more open piece than a smaller/tighter one.
In this kind of scenario, it could be that the bigger piece gives us the illusion of being better in tune because it makes it easier (and with less conscious intervention) for us to produce better-in-tune results.


I tend to find that proper air support is more vital when playing on smaller and tighter equipment too - in much the same way, I have to be more conscious of it in order to get the most out of it.


Ofcourse everyone else is right - like any other tool, you have to learn its tendencies and learn to use them to your advantage (and overcome them where necessary).
It almost goes without saying that the tuning slide needs to go where it needs to go - attempting to conform to where you think it *should* be is only going to result in contortions and wasted effort (or in short: inefficiency).

[deleted_user_680e93b]

I think perhaps i worded the question incorrectly, it was more of wondering out loud thing. I think it was more of just a physics question. I had read somewhere the some mouthpiece manufacturers are better than others at making mouthpieces "easier" to play in tune based on things they employ and adjust during manufacturing. Kind of like how Curry shortens the TF and TC shanks to help with tuning. I use very little lip intrusion now with the pieces i play, but ofcourse used more when i played the big stuff.
I play different now, than i used to, granted in school i was playing 6 hours a day at least. today, i barely have time to get through my variation on the Adam Routine, but its enough to keep getting gigs in the R & B bands i play in. Anyway, thanks for the interesting comments and thoughts.

regards,

tom

[deleted_user_680e93b]

[TKSop]

[trickg]

[cheiden]

I've known a good number of successful players who play small and/or shallow gear that pull their tuning slides out much further than the 1/4"-3/8" you typically see. If everything else is working out I don't think there's any point in fighting it if that what's needed to be in tune.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Dale Proctor]

Are you sharper throughout your range, or mainly just above the staff? I had the same problem years ago when using a Schilke 13A4a - the upper register went sharp, even with the tuning slide pulled correctly for the middle register. I had the throat enlarged slightly, with the side effect of making a bit more of the throat cylindrical, which cured the problem. Your mileage may vary.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[trickg]

[razeontherock]

[deleted_user_680e93b]

[Brad361]

[Benge.nut]

[deleted_user_680e93b]