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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chapahi,

1. I am a downstream player – very natural as a former flute player I think; this year from February to March I took a rest in trumpet and played flute again for 2 month exclusively – no problems – I played like the years before. Begin of April I took my trumpet again and was astonished how good it works after that long rest of two month.

Playing flute the upper lip is freely unfurled whereas the lower lip is pressed on the plate of the embouchure hole and unfurled too. It is that kind of unfurling you see when looking at pictures from Maynard. But what happens in the mouthpiece of the trumpet rim is crucial. You can not unfurl outside the rim like Maynard and inhibit it inside the rim, but you can unfurl inside and not showing it outside.

2. I was involved in TCE since a couple of month. I personal found it to be very similar. I started a discussion in the dedicated Callet forum of TH – “Callet vs MF embouchure”. You can read there if you like.

3. I can only say for now: if the rim is greater as my normal mouthpiece id I struggle. But there are guys who do it on a rim visualizer which often has a wider id. It depends on your physiognomy I think.
Simply give it a try.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Shak, wow you've done a lot of experimentation with the rim! When I first got Lynn's video over the summer, I worked with some other rims I had to try to get the rim buzzing going. It took me a couple of weeks I think to even get a loud siren type sound on it - and I couldn't really control it. I stopped doing it after I was getting the loud high notes on it..I think mainly because the rim buzzing is loud and annoying! Also, it is very physical and I'm not used to that type of physical effort when doing trumpet related practice. I did some more rim buzzing after I got Lynn's MHT and was using the reversible rim. But it's only been in the last week and a half where I've been getting control over this buzz. This is when I really dedicated myself to doing several sessions everyday and trying to gain some control. I did this because, when experimenting with the rim buzzing again, I believe I found the ‘feel’ on the trumpet of what Lynn was talking about with the protocol and it was just so easy as far as my chops were concerned. I now feel I finally got the concept of what Lynn is talking about as far as the possibilities of playing this way.

I never tried rim buzzing with my normal embouchure - just unfurled the way Lynn describes. I wear over the ear headphones and put something on my computer to watch when I do this practice, as it makes it much more palatable! I can usually do the buzzing for a few minutes only and then it 'shuts off' and I have to take a break from it. While I can buzz simple melodies and scales with the rim right now, I can't do it with the control Lynn does and with harder melodies yet. What's great is that, when I go back to the horn, everything does feel easier and more open and the extreme high register feels easier and more consistent.

Yeah, I wonder if it's necessary to do any other practice regarding range and endurance other than the rim buzzing. I'm just so used to doing something for the chops every day. So far today I started off with some rim buzzing and then did 'Series 9' in Dave Hickman's new book, 'Beyond the C'. As I've said in my other posts, I am focused on relaxation in the chops and exercises that work the tongue and air and coordinate everything - so that's why I like the lip slurs, trills, and interval practice.. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the MF protocol would eliminate the need for fundamental practice..just the need to focus on fundamentals for range and endurance. There's still plenty fundamental practice - like for clean slurs, articulation, tricky, wide intervals..just being able to play a simple Concone etude perfectly and with extreme musicality. But, of course, more time could be spent practicing the musical aspects of trumpet without having to think about range and endurance! Being a pro player, I spend the majority of my time practicing jazz and music that I need to work on for upcoming gigs, besides the fundamentals I mentioned.

I've known several players who have said flute playing helps their trumpet playing. I could see why this is true for reasons mentioned here in this thread.

Chapahi - When I first got Lynn's video, I didn't have his rim and used some other rims I had that weren't the exact size of my mouthpiece. The Reversible Rim that Lynn makes isn't the size of my mouthpiece either.. I believe one side of the rim is the same rim as Lynn's Xpiece. While I use the Xpiece sometimes, I tend to go right to the Vintage MF Pickett for a lot of my practice these days. Anyway, I don't see why the Reeves 40 rim wouldn't work for you. I'm pretty sure the Reeves 40 rim is one of the rims I first used.

I am tending to think that the Protocol could be implemented on any reasonable mouthpiece.. Probably a softer bite would be much better as it wouldn't 'pin' the chops - but this also depends on your own lips and facial structure. I do believe the MF design mouthpieces are best and quickest way to learn the protocol because they encourage this type of playing by their design.
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen the terms "protocol and unfurled " used so much in my life.

Unfurled just means natural lip position, not rolled in right? Or do you think it means unrolled passed the natural relaxed setting?

Because I think when people unroll, they get into a pucker, pooched or kiss shape. And I don't know if that's always beneficial

I did a lot of Magio style playing years ago, pucker/monkey shaped chops, pedals etc. and it took years to unscrew some bad playing habits that caused me.

Food for thought
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Benge.nut that's not it at all. You really would need to watch Lynn's video to understand it. He addresses all of this. I think anyone experimenting with this way of playing without seeing Lynn talk about and demonstrate would likely really screw their chops up!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Hey Benge.nut that's not it at all. You really would need to watch Lynn's video to understand it. He addresses all of this. I think anyone experimenting with this way of playing without seeing Lynn talk about and demonstrate would likely really screw their chops up!


I'm more curious about the terminology. I have no interest in changing anything with my chops right now. It's taken about a decade to get comfortable with my playing and hardware to get me with a sound I like, and dexterity I need and endurance to play whatever is put in front of me.

At some point I might want to readdress things but not currently. I know where everything fits, and am happy with horn, mouthpieces, and my own playing. Pandora's box is CLOSED .....for the moment
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've been reading your posts..I like what you've written about Callet's stuff.. I agree with what you are saying there. I know a couple of cats in my area who use the 'Superchops' stuff and get very good results. Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Yeah, I've been reading your posts..I like what you've written about Callet's stuff.. I agree with what you are saying there. I know a couple of cats in my area who use the 'Superchops' stuff and get very good results. Best, Lex


Yeah I'm finally at a stage when I'm not over analyzing stuff, and can focus on playing music instead of worrying about every tiny nuance and change in my chops.

Am I perfect, or have the biggest double Cs or a superstar? Far from it, there are always tons of places where I want and can improve. But I can read and play just about any lead book or show book in front of me. Play the part andhave endurance to make it through any gig. My range is comfortable to high As and Bbs where I can tongue, slur, sit on, play lines and melodies, shake, turn, or doit a bit. And if I feel strong I can play double Cs and Ds but they aren't as dependable or consistent. So unless i feel real good and have a break or a breath to set up I don't try playing anything more than my high As or Bbs.

But I'm NEVER really satisfied, but the cost vs return for re establishing or trying to reinvent my chops right now just isn't worth it.
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chapahi,

1. I am a downstream player – very natural as a former flute player I think; this year from February to March I took a rest in trumpet and played flute again for 2 month exclusively – no problems – I played like the years before. Begin of April I took my trumpet again and was astonished how good it works after that long rest of two month.

Playing flute the upper lip is freely unfurled whereas the lower lip is pressed on the plate of the embouchure hole and unfurled too. It is that kind of unfurling you see when looking at pictures from Maynard. But what happens in the mouthpiece of the trumpet rim is crucial. You can not unfurl outside the rim like Maynard and inhibit it inside the rim, but you can unfurl inside and not showing it outside.

2. I was involved in TCE since a couple of month. I personal found it to be very similar. I started a discussion in the dedicated Callet forum of TH – “Callet vs MF embouchure”. You can read there if you like.

3. I can only say for now: if the rim is greater as my normal mouthpiece id I struggle. But there are guys who do it on a rim visualizer which often has a wider id. It depends on your physiognomy I think.
Simply give it a try.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut - Yeah Benge, I hear you man. Your chops sound like the couple of guys I know who use the Superchops concepts. All I can tell you about Lynn’s protocol is that it didn’t have a negative effect on my regular playing. In fact, it improves it. If I do too much rim buzzing I get physically tired and a headache..but that isn’t happening so much anymore, as I have a pretty good sense when to stop a rim buzzing session. Also, if I do a lot of rim buzzing, my endurance may be less going back to the horn, and I have to rest more between a rim buzzing session and playing if I want my range and endurance at full capacity. But, again, I have a pretty good sense now of how much rim buzzing to do while keeping my range and endurance strong and even improved.

You were talking about wanting some clarification of the terminology. I hesistate to try to do this because I know that trying to experiment with this without seeing and hearing Lynn demonstrate it would almost positively result in screwing up the chops. The unfurling is a very, very minor shift and has absolutely nothing to do with puckering or anything like that. Lynn demonstrates this on his video as well as a lot of close-ups of unfurling and the buzzing and playing. So, except for the feeling changing (for the better) in my chops, everything else is exactly the same for me. I am still a downstream IIIB player and my mouthpiece and everything goes right in the same place on my chops, and I really am not consciously doing anything different when I’m playing the horn. Can’t say if everyone would have these results, but I just wanted to share that info with you. All the very best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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mcombo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Thanks guys! Reply with quote

I'm really enjoying this thread. Thanks to you all for taking the time to contribute so thoughtfully.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few more clips on this thread might help to better illustrate some of the points.
This one may not represent 'protocol' as clearly as stated unfurling examples have done, but it runs a very close second to it :



Link
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
A few more clips on this thread might help to better illustrate some of the points.
This one may not represent 'protocol' as clearly as recent unfurling examples have done, but it runs a very close second to it :



Link


Whelp, those are a whole bunch of high notes.

Are they powerful and exiting? Heck yeah!! I'm surprised the M.D. let those crazy trumpet shenanigans go on. I guess Mr Humperdinck liked some high notes as well!

Lynn has some of the most frighteningly powerful chops of any man I've ever heard play trumpet. Just astounding.
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PayDayCon92
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Lynn Reply with quote

I've just recently found Lynn's videos and i'm incredibly impressed. Killing it!
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Jazzninja9
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what the issue was with the previous thread was. I know I've been a fan of Maynard's and Lynn's since I first heard their work. I purchased Lynn's video on Vimeo I believe(rented rather) and it's definitely opened my eyes to some things I never noticed about my playing, though I'm not some phenomenal high note expert, I'm quite happy with the way I use my range and its progress. Also with my consistence and endurance up top. Massive gratitude to you Lynn for sharing your knowledge.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Lynn Nicholson's Protocol Reply with quote

I have not been on the forum for a long time and I probably will not be on it very much in the future, except maybe to sell a truckload of mouthpieces.

The main reason I stopped using the forum is the judgmental attitude of some forum moderators who are just a little too quick with that “delete thread” button.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this posting gets deleted because it may just rub the moderator the wrong way. And maybe I get completely thrown off the forum because I am too controversial. Well, if that happens, I can always sell my pieces via my eBay account.

The “judge-&-jury” syndrome sure is going around quite a bit these days.

THERE WAS NO REASON TO DELETE LYNN NICHOLSON’S THREAD.

So what, that those discussions get a little “rowdy” and politically incorrect at times. Hell, I thought that many trumpet players, by their very nature, are of “the rowdy type” …. LOL …… Unless of course the moderator thinks we have turned into a bunch of snowflakes that get offended oh so easily.

I am now directly in touch with Lynn Nicholson via email and phone. Traditional trumpet methods have only gotten me up to high C but that’s it. Now using Lynn’s protocol with his XPiece and Reversible Rim, my above high C “screaming” is finally beginning to take shape. In addition Lynn suggested I ordered the Maynard Vintage piece from Roger Ingram. So now I follow Lynn’s suggested protocol with the XPiece/RevRim and then go to my everyday piece which is now the Maynard Vintage. A small piece but with a huge sound.

Last but not least, I now also fully understand the physical dynamics behind the playing of the different methods and why some methods work well for others and other methods don’t and vice-versa. No, I am not going into a discussion on this topic for obvious reasons. And those of you that have said that they have physics and engineering degrees to back up your arguments, you should know that I have taught these “dynamics matters” to students like you, in undergrad and grad courses at a High Standing University.

Last but not least: Thank you Lynn Nicholson, thank you Maynard Ferguson, thank you Roger Ingram, thank you Claude Gordon, thank you Jeff Smiley and thank you Greg Spence and thank you to all my past teachers that have added to my trumpet playing and who’s names I have forgotten.

And now I am going to play a few "standards" ….. UP AN OCTAVE ……. LOL ……
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Harry, that was awhile back with Lynn's posts.. There were a few really strange cats (or one with different usernames?) that posted that obviously had some type of personal grudge with Lynn. I'm sure you've been on Lynn's fb page, so you see how he lives out in nature and everything. So he's got a lot of + energy from that I believe and what I notice is, sometimes, these cats with a lot of + energy can attract the opposite sometimes.. but I just ignore those cats and read the posts of people who are truly interested in what Lynn is saying.

Cool deal about the mouthpieces. Besides the Pickett, I really like Stomvi's GH and all Derek's MF style pieces (Legends mouthpieces). I just recently got the FBL TM he makes and it's a beautiful small group jazz piece with it's medium deep V cup. Also I really like Roger's own personal V cup mouthpiece which is a hybrid of several MF's designs that he worked to create over the years.

Lynn just got his first deliveries of the Lynnzhorn. Even though I just recently got a new Carol Blackhawk, I may have to pull the trigger on the Lynnzhorn soon.. I'm sure it's a killer axe. All the best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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fox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: Lynn Nicholson's Protocol Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:

Last but not least: Thank you Lynn Nicholson, thank you Maynard Ferguson, thank you Roger Ingram, thank you Claude Gordon, thank you Jeff Smiley and thank you Greg Spence and thank you to all my past teachers that have added to my trumpet playing and who’s names I have forgotten.
……


Plenty of great teachers and influences to take something from.

I have not been playing much. It is off season here in Florida. Also I am recovering from quadruple hernia surgery. How much of that was from the trumpet or maybe from being a set-up guy for our big band, or maybe just from birth? I do know I had to be real careful playing just a rim. Not sure when I can try that again. Need more efficiency in the chops.

That's something that some people don't like to talk about, the posture of the chops. Jeff Smiley does. So does Lynn. Is a roll-in different than unfurling? Not so simple to say IMHO. Also, how can someone like Jim Manley make it look so effortless? With Lynn, less so. Personally, I just want to be able to play without pulling a nut. So I am combining Jeff's roll-in with Lynn's mpc concept. Unfurling just gets my skinny-a** cupid's bow in a few extra knots.

Lynn and Jeff are both very generous with their thoughts for sure- good guys.

Doug
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Doug, you really need to see Lynn's vid 'Got High Notes?' to understand the unfurling. He shows it in detail. Most people I see commenting about unfurling totally mistake what it is as they haven't seen the vid.

Does Jeff Smiley's roll-in, roll-out method promote unfurling? I don't know..Maybe with some players..Maybe with others they roll-in more as they ascend. I do know of several players around my area who corrected embouchure problems using his Balanced Embouchure method. IMO, there's a lot of good things in that teaching.

I had a good talk with a trumpet maker about Lynn. Right now, Lynn plays a very open mouthpiece - a really big throat, no gap, and a bigger backbore.. So he is totally relying on his body. This guy pointed out older vids of Lynn where he's playing a somewhat more resistant set-up and you can see he is using less body effort.

Yeah, Lynn and Jeff are both great cats!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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fox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lex, I rented Lynn's video for the long interval and discussed it with him a few times. Studied BE for years and even went to see Jeff in TX. He lives pretty close to my sister.

Look up Chris L's (Mr. Hollywood) post on Lynn's unfurling. He has an interesting theory. D
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey fox thanks for reminding me about that thread with Chris! I can tell you that my lips are thin like Lynn's and I definitely feel a difference between unfurled and more 'rolled in'. I don't know if it's easier to play unfurled with thinner lips or not, but what I find now is my chops do 'roll-out' more when I ascend, rather than 'roll-in' as they used to. Of course we're talking about very small movements here, and maybe not even visually noticeable on a player like me with thinner lips. Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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