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Richard III
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 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Relying on your ear and not "thinking of notes as notes" and reacting to what they hear instead of knowing what's coming next in a progression is an exercise in self centered, masturbatory musicality. If you are "reacting to what you hear" you can't work together as a unit, and if you need to hear something to react, you don't know the form or what's coming next.. |
We all know the song. We all know the style. We know what sounds good with what. We play something that goes with the song and style. We hear someone doing that and we play something complimentary. None of us needs to know what the chords are. All we need is what the song is and what key are we playing in and away we go.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Benge.nut, I don't know what bad experiences you have had, I'm sorry for that. And I think I know what you re reeling against. But it seems that a straw man is being made that blows this out of proportion and to prove a point.
Much of what you say is great food for thought. And I don't suppose that questioning your experience would be called for, either.
But although I value "book learnin'" as much, if not more, than the next guy, there is just no question that there are those out there who are superb ear players. I've worked with them - and they make it work.
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| djpearlman wrote: | | So, Sr. Benge, no music based harmonic structures or concepts on other than "changes" can be considered jazz? Ornette Coleman did not play jazz? |
That is the problem with "worlds of jazz": dixie, swing, bebop and free (of course, more than that, but roughly that is the divide). Most players try to fit into the first, second (sometimes 1+2) or third group, and pretend everything else does not exist. Those in the fourth group master all styles. Guess which group I belong to. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Thank you, HERMOKIWI.
Benge.nut I don't know what bad experiences you have had, but it seems that a straw man is being that blows this out of proportion and to prove a point.
Much of what you say is great food for thought. And I don't suppose that questioning your experience would be called for, either. But although I value "book learnin'" as much, if not more, than the next guy, there is just no question that there are those out there who are superb ear players - and they make it work. |
Any of those superb "ear players" piano players or bass players?? Or do only horn players get to make excuses and take short cuts?
This is a debate I've had with tons of horn players that just seem happy enough with mediocrity when it comes to improvising. And I can never get passed the point that the horn player should be no different than the other members of the unit who HAVE to know changes and form in order for a tune to be played. Why horn players think it's ok to just fumble through a solo boggles my mind.
Why not just put in the work and learn instead of guessing by relying on what you think you hear?
"Book learning"?? Jazz is a discipline. Disciplines require work and study.
But everybody is different and I cant persuade anybody to not put in the work to be a better musician, not even with sound logic.
Like I said, say I needed a sax player for a quintet job, and I get a referral for a guy who "plays by ear"?? He doesn't even get a call from me. Nor anybody I know would want to work with a player like that. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: |
"Book learning"?? Jazz is a discipline. Disciplines require work and study.
But everybody is different and I cant persuade anybody to not put in the work to be a better musician . . . |
Look, like I said, you make some good points. But in the end, I think this is too narrow a perspective. At any rate, the readers can sort this out for themselves so I sure don't mind the differences in perspective.
Regarding your points above about being undisciplined and about laziness, I have both a Bachelor and Master degree in music from the Univ. of North Texas, cum laude and Magna cum Laude respectively. Not lazy. I just think this is overblown, that's all. Basta, LOL.
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brassmusician
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| What is a good ear player? I play with a very good improviser (on trumpet) who plays great musical solos with phrases etc. He seems to internalise the chord changes of a tune very quicky. He hears the key centres, harmonic progressions in a way that I don't. Pretty sure he doesn't shed lots of standards, although he is an excellent jazz pianist. Have seen him struggle occasionally when he can't hear the comping clearly or the guitarist/pianist gets lost. Probably such players are not common and shedding/memorizing standards and changes is an easier route for most. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | The primary conflicts here are in how you define "playing by ear" and how you define "knowing the changes."
Players who can "play by ear" proficiently are not hunting and pecking and guessing about what they're playing. They don't think of the notes as "notes." They think of the notes as "pitches" they have trained themselves to play automatically by ear. The names of the notes are irrelevant to them. Similarly the names of the chords are irrelevant to them because they can hear the components of the chords and can respond automatically inside or outside the chords as they choose. Such players might not be able to name the changes but they certainly "know the changes."
Chet Baker was famous as an "ear player." He couldn't lecture to a music theory class because he wasn't educated in music theory. That didn't stop him from being one of the most proficient improvisers in jazz history.
If you are proficient at "playing by ear" and you have acquired a jazz vocabulary you've "put in the work" to be a proficient improviser without the necessity of book learning. |
This is jive.
Whether you play piano, bass, or a horn should make no difference. You have to understand the math and it's function to be able to intelligently compose/improvise a melody.
Relying on your ear and not "thinking of notes as notes" and reacting to what they hear instead of knowing what's coming next in a progression is an exercise in self centered, masturbatory musicality. If you are "reacting to what you hear" you can't work together as a unit, and if you need to hear something to react, you don't know the form or what's coming next...you're just wasting everybody's time, and you might as well just stay at home and play with Abersold records.
Because you're not communicating with the rhythm section and you're not a part of the unit if you're only reacting to what you hear and have no regard for the form or understanding of the function of changes, to dictate what you're going to play... that's not jazz. |
Jazz improvisation is a language. It consists of sounds, pitches, articulations, rhythms, etc. Verbal language also consists of sounds, pitches, articulations, rhythms, etc. The principles of learning the language of jazz improvisation are the same as the principles of learning a verbal language.
Most people, including (I assume) you, became fluent in their native language without the knowledge of the mechanics. If that's true for you and you can carry on a verbal conversation in your native language then you've done exactly what you're saying can't be done.
Jazz improvisation is essentially a conversation between the soloist and the listener within the context of form and chord structure. The principles are the same as two people having a verbal conversation, they're reacting to each other within the context of the conversation and improvising what's said next within that context as the conversation moves ahead. The participants are "reacting to what they hear" so they can "work together as a unit."
Proficient ear players know the form and they know what's coming next if they're familiar with the tune. They hear it in their heads and, for them, hearing it that way is an adequate (if not superior) substitute for being able to name notes and chords.
Being a proficient ear player isn't confined to horn players. Keyboard players, bass players and guitar players can be and frequently are also proficient ear players.
When I use the term "proficient ear player" I'm not talking about someone who habitually stumbles through a solo hacking and hewing the form and chord changes into oblivion. I'm talking about a skilled musician who can pick up his or her instrument and improvise proficiently without the rhythm section playing at all because the player hears the form and chords in his or her head. Chet Baker was an excellent example.
For a proficient ear player jazz improvisation is no different than having a verbal conversation with someone except for the fact that the sounds are coming from the instrument rather than from the player's vocal chords. No knowledge of mechanics is required. The player just picks up their instrument and does it. They know the tune and have the skill to improvise within its context by ear. There are lots of players that have this skill.
The advantage gained by having the technical knowledge is to be able to read a chord chart of an unfamiliar tune. If the tune is familiar to a proficient ear player, however, then the chord chart is, to that player, like having a television to watch on their honeymoon: Unnecessary. 
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etc-etc
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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Develop your ear by memorizing what all 12 individual pitches sound like on the piano in different octaves. This really helps with hearing tonality or key of the moment as Berklee College of Music says. Play 1 pitch on piano then on trumpet and imply everything you want to express with one note holding the note for many measures. If you do it right the listener will hear and see beautiful colors, vistas and landscapes. Now play every note like that.
| nate_baca wrote: | I have been interested in learning to play jazz for awhile now and was recently reading Paul Berliner's "Thinking in Jazz". In it, he mentions a 10-step method that Lee Konitz described to learn songs. He starts with having the person learn the tune, then over a series of steps, has the musician embellish more and more until the musician reaches the point of playing "an act of pure inspiration".
I am wondering if anyone has any more information about this method and what a typical progression looks like from a trumpeter's perspective?
I really want to develop my ear so that I can learn more and play more from what I hear. |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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| Arjuna wrote: | | Develop your ear by memorizing what all 12 individual pitches sound like on the piano in different octaves. This really helps with hearing tonality or key of the moment as Berklee College of Music says. Play 1 pitch on piano then on trumpet and imply everything you want to express with one note holding the note for many measures. If you do it right the listener will hear and see beautiful colors, vistas and landscapes. Now play every note like that. |
Well said! |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | Arjuna wrote: | | Develop your ear by memorizing what all 12 individual pitches sound like on the piano in different octaves. This really helps with hearing tonality or key of the moment as Berklee College of Music says. Play 1 pitch on piano then on trumpet and imply everything you want to express with one note holding the note for many measures. If you do it right the listener will hear and see beautiful colors, vistas and landscapes. Now play every note like that. |
Well said! |
Yeah focus on beautiful colors, vistas, and landscapes instead of learning theory, scales, patterns, progressions, substitutions, and memorizing tunes and working on learning tunes in all keys.
Just memorize what "all 12 pitches sound like" instead of transcribing solos, learning and applying vocaab and listening to other players and incorporating those skill sets to develope your own voice.
Just learn jazz by ear!!
That'll get you gigs for sure!! When somebody asks you to take a solo go ahead and "play one note and imply everything you want to express with one note, holding the note for many measures" ...you'll mesmerize the band and the listeners!!
You'll be the most in demand cat on the scene for sure! Just play man, don't worry about the details....now that's a REAL artist!! |
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trumpethead
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Whatever it takes to music work for you...
My experience amongst Pro players is that the better ones play by ear, with the majority having very little or no idea what they're playing.., but they make beautiful music nonetheless. (I'm talking HORN players here)
The world is full of musicians who play modally, relying on chords, scales and the like, and to me, they all sound the same. Doesn't make them bad, just interchangeable.
I firmly believe that you're born with the ability to improvise and in my experience, the best ones possess a natural ability that transcends any formal theoretical training. Some just never get it, regardless of how much theory they know. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| trumpethead wrote: | Whatever it takes to music work for you...
My experience amongst Pro players is that the better ones play by ear, with the majority having very little or no idea what they're playing.., but they make beautiful music nonetheless. (I'm talking HORN players here)
The world is full of musicians who play modally, relying on chords, scales and the like, and to me, they all sound the same. Doesn't make them bad, just interchangeable.
I firmly believe that you're born with the ability to improvise and in my experience, the best ones possess a natural ability that transcends any formal theoretical training. Some just never get it, regardless of how much theory they know. |
I agree that "pattern players" can get boring fast. And that the act of playing a melody gets lost with some players and is replaced by just playing endless scales and substitutions and patterns.
I think a healthy balance of both is a good goal.
But I can't put stock in players who have "very little or no idea what they are playing" as a skill set beyond getting lucky. And if they have said ability, my gosh....why not polish it by learning why what they are playing makes them successful?
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: |
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And for the OP just starting out, why not learn the right way and avoid bad habits of just blindly hunting and pecking for "right notes"?
Nobody is gonna hire a guy that doesn't know tunes and know how to play as a unit for a casual or cocktail gig playing straight ahead.
If your goal is just making it through a solo in some community big band, or hanging out at a non paying jam sessions somewhere, and just soloing for fun...then do what you will.
But if you want to really learn the skill of improvising, which as I said is composing on the fly...you gotta put in the time, work and studying. Because you're not going to fool anybody in the band, but maybe just fool yourself. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | | Arjuna wrote: | | Develop your ear by memorizing what all 12 individual pitches sound like on the piano in different octaves. This really helps with hearing tonality or key of the moment as Berklee College of Music says. Play 1 pitch on piano then on trumpet and imply everything you want to express with one note holding the note for many measures. If you do it right the listener will hear and see beautiful colors, vistas and landscapes. Now play every note like that. |
Well said! |
Yeah focus on beautiful colors, vistas, and landscapes instead of learning theory, scales, patterns, progressions, substitutions, and memorizing tunes and working on learning tunes in all keys.
Just memorize what "all 12 pitches sound like" instead of transcribing solos, learning and applying vocaab and listening to other players and incorporating those skill sets to develope your own voice.
Just learn jazz by ear!!
That'll get you gigs for sure!! When somebody asks you to take a solo go ahead and "play one note and imply everything you want to express with one note, holding the note for many measures" ...you'll mesmerize the band and the listeners!!
You'll be the most in demand cat on the scene for sure! Just play man, don't worry about the details....now that's a REAL artist!! |
Your conception of "playing by ear" is apparently limited to players who really can't play by ear. Studying the mechanics is beneficial for players for whom studying the mechanics turns out to be beneficial. That does not include every player. For some players the mechanics would be limiting, would imply an "inside the box" approach, would stifle creativity and would just serve to confuse things.
Shakespeare was a pretty good writer yet there's no evidence to show that he could diagram a sentence, knew the formal definition of a noun, verb, pronoun, adverb, article, preposition, etc. or that he studied English at even an elementary level. Shakespeare was adept at language by the process of simply using language.
A genuinely proficient ear player isn't "memorizing" tunes. A genuinely proficient ear player can simply play the tune by ear once the player can hear the tune in his or her head. A genuinely proficient ear player instantaneously matches the muscular movement and airflow necessary to produce the desired pitch, the player does not need to think about it any more than you have to think of every word you speak in a conversation, the notes are automatic just as the words are automatic.
Which brings me to this question: Why is it so difficult for you to conceptualize this and acknowledge that a player with this ability who also possesses a strong jazz vocabulary can be an extremely strong jazz improviser, the exact person you'd want to hire?
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:16 am Post subject: |
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"Chords? We don't play chords, we play sound." -- Miles Davis
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Which brings me to this question: Why is it so difficult for you to conceptualize this and acknowledge that a player with this ability who also possesses a strong jazz vocabulary can be an extremely strong jazz improviser, the exact person you'd want to hire? |
I want to play, work with and hire guys that possess all those things.
Guys who "play by ear" and can't tell you the form of a tune, and just swim around the changes hoping to find a right note here and there....I don't want anywhere near the bandstand I'm playing on.
I'm very pragmatic in my idea of musicality and my thoughts on playing in a jazz setting. This comes from playing with all kinds of players. Some great, some not, some THINK they are great, but really are quite jive.
The straight ahead jobs I do are mostly for corporate work, weddings, cocktail parties, some times restaurants for brunches. We aren't into esoteric free ambiguous extended solos. Somebody calls a tune, 90% of the time we all know it. Play it, keep solos short and sweet, melodic as not to bore the room to death and move on to the next tune. No long discussions or planning about a tune or form...because we all know it and have played hem 1000s of times. Most of the communication is done with a nod, or eye contact. It's very organic and easy. Lots of listening and playful games between rhythm section guys and the soloist at the time, lots of funny quotes and references...just a good time.
Some "ear player" that doesn't know the tunes, or the forms, or how to solo over them would be a drag to work with.
In conclusion; if you say there are cats that just use their ear, and don't know fundamentals, or think they are stifling, and are superstars...that's fine. But I don't know any, and they don't show up on gigs I work, and I don't call those guys to jobs.
And if that's the kind of player you aspire to me...good luck finding work and to find people who want play that way I guess. I'm not omnipotent and I may be well off base, but I don't think so.
Best of luck to all!
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ENINCA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: Multiple paths |
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In my opinion there's no shortcut to learning jazz improvisation. Unless you're a one-in-a-million musical savant, mere mortals like us have to put in a ton of work to make progress.
BUT, people are all different. We learn and think differently. Some of us are music-theory nerds who soak up the book-learning part of learning the science of how the changes work and how they're constructed etc. Others of us struggle to get fluent with the math and science part of it, but are naturally stronger at absorbing a deep understanding of the changes by ear.
There are multiple paths to learning this stuff, but most of us do a combination of theory study, scales and patterns in all keys, transcriptions etc and also just playing: Ear training, learning solos from recordings, memorizing heads etc.
I, myself, have struggled with the theory stuff. But I've studied and learned it. I'm a total hack on piano, but I can sit down with jazz charts and plunk out the chords. I've drilled the modes and exotic scales in all keys by memory etc. It's very much a lifelong work in progress, but at this point, if I'm soloing over changes I've never seen before, I'm way more apt to lean on my ear than to try and look at the changes and "do the math" fast enough to inform what I might play. I play with other musicians who are the opposite and would completely rely on their theory knowledge at that point. Neither of those approaches is any less legitimate.
All of us use a slightly different mix of work to get there, but there's no shortcut on whichever paths you choose.
People always cite Chet Baker as proof that you don't need to know theory, but he's very much the exception and you can bet he played many thousands of hours to get as fluent as he was. He didn't roll out of bed playing solos like that.
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trumpethead
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Learning Jazz by Ear |
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| Quote: |
Your conception of "playing by ear" is apparently limited to players who really can't play by ear.
A genuinely proficient ear player isn't "memorizing" tunes. A genuinely proficient ear player can simply play the tune by ear once the player can hear the tune in his or her head. A genuinely proficient ear player instantaneously matches the muscular movement and airflow necessary to produce the desired pitch, the player does not need to think about it any more than you have to think of every word you speak in a conversation, the notes are automatic just as the words are automatic. |
YES... THIS!
Even with a natural ability, it needs to be stated that it takes countless hours/years of practice, ear training and knowing your horn, to become proficient at improvising.
Peace... |
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Hugh Anderson
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| It takes a long time to learn to read music, an equally long time to learn to play by ear. |
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