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Learning Jazz by Ear


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nate_baca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Learning Jazz by Ear Reply with quote

I have been interested in learning to play jazz for awhile now and was recently reading Paul Berliner's "Thinking in Jazz". In it, he mentions a 10-step method that Lee Konitz described to learn songs. He starts with having the person learn the tune, then over a series of steps, has the musician embellish more and more until the musician reaches the point of playing "an act of pure inspiration".
I am wondering if anyone has any more information about this method and what a typical progression looks like from a trumpeter's perspective?
I really want to develop my ear so that I can learn more and play more from what I hear.
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djpearlman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.melmartin.com/html_pages/Interviews/konitz.html
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before learning jazz by ear, it's advised to have at least basic understands of scales, chords, progressions, and fundamentals of improvising.

Improvising is composing on the fly. You can't just rely on your ear. Imagine a jazz combo and the bass player and piano player were just using their ear...it would be impossible. A horn player is no different.

Further, you should be able to play out bass lines of whatever chord progression you are working on. Having a simple playing ability on the piano will help with visualizing patterns and scales, and is of great ear training.

And you should have a bit of vocabulary to make simple melodies. Even just quarter notes, eighth notes and triplets. Simple melodies using passing tones and staying with in the harmonic structure.

After you have this very basic first steps of improvising, then maybe get into conceptual ideas like you mentioned.

But just showing up, and playing a tune or over changes by ear is no fun for anybody in the band...as you won't be fooling anybody, and is just a waste of time. And avoid just playing blues scales and random button pushing.

I'd spend some time listening to old bebop guys to get vocab and harmonic ideas. Don't limit yourself to just trumpeters either. And start maybe a bit simple. Transcribing by ear is also super beneficial for ear training, as is written transcriptions.

Good luck, thee are no short cuts, and no magic answer in any book. Gotta put in the time.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Additionally, Aebersold's books/CDs Volumes 1, "How To Play Jazz", Volume 2, "Nothing But Blues", and Volume 54, "Maiden Voyage" are good starting places.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, that's how I started. When I was a young guy I played in a polka band. We had a gig for a private party that was not a polka gig, it was GB gig. The leader showed me the GB gig music which was all standards, Miami Beach, Misty, Meditation, Satin Doll, etc. We were playing the first tune and after the head the leader says "Take a solo". I nearly panicked, but I just started playing an embellished version on the melody. I started playing with scales in the key, notes above and below the melody (we called those notes upper and lower neighbors in music theory class), etc. I already had some music theory classes under my belt so after that gig I started transcribing solos and learning about chord changes and chord scales. Funny thing was, I asked friends about chords and such and nobody had answers. We had a piano at home so I started to learn major, minor, diminished and augmented on my own. Music theory class made the connection and the light bulb came on. I did a lot of listening too. So, I see the validity in what he is doing with the book.
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's playing by ear and there's improvising. They aren't quite the same.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, but it should be kept in mind, especially in this day and age, that first and foremost jazz is an aural art.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
No, but it should be kept in mind, especially in this day and age, that first and foremost jazz is an aural art.


Yeah, it's aural. But with out form, direction and discipline it's just making noise.

I always use the same analogy, imagine if the bass player and piano player showed up to a gig and just "played by ear"?? It would be a disaster. Why people think it should be any different for a horn player makes no sense to me.

Unless you're in to free jazz....and by "free" I mean, nobody is gonna pay to hear that garbage.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
Before learning jazz by ear, it's advised to have at least basic understands of scales, chords, progressions, and fundamentals of improvising.

Improvising is composing on the fly. You can't just rely on your ear. Imagine a jazz combo and the bass player and piano player were just using their ear...it would be impossible. A horn player is no different.

Further, you should be able to play out bass lines of whatever chord progression you are working on. Having a simple playing ability on the piano will help with visualizing patterns and scales, and is of great ear training.

And you should have a bit of vocabulary to make simple melodies. Even just quarter notes, eighth notes and triplets. Simple melodies using passing tones and staying with in the harmonic structure.

After you have this very basic first steps of improvising, then maybe get into conceptual ideas like you mentioned.

But just showing up, and playing a tune or over changes by ear is no fun for anybody in the band...as you won't be fooling anybody, and is just a waste of time. And avoid just playing blues scales and random button pushing.

I'd spend some time listening to old bebop guys to get vocab and harmonic ideas. Don't limit yourself to just trumpeters either. And start maybe a bit simple. Transcribing by ear is also super beneficial for ear training, as is written transcriptions.

Good luck, thee are no short cuts, and no magic answer in any book. Gotta put in the time.


I agree that knowledge of scales, chords and progressions might be beneficial to developing skill in improvisation. However, I think that the ability to play by ear coupled with knowledge of improvisational language are the most important skills necessary to be proficient at jazz improvisation. As for "fundamentals of improvising," I don't know that there is any universal agreement regarding what those fundamentals are.

Before you learned to speak your native language as a child did you know how to diagram a sentence, identify nouns, verbs, pronouns, adverbs, articles, prepositions, etc? Of course not. You became fluent in speaking your native language by the process of ear training: You heard the phonetics, learned to coordinate your muscular movements and airflow to produce those phonetics and ultimately associated the words, phrases and sentences created by those phonetics with specific meanings. You were fluent in your native language long before you ever even heard of sentence diagrams, nouns, verbs, pronouns, adverbs, articles, prepositions, etc. So you've already proven that it isn't necessary to know anything about the technical stuff in order to become fluent in a language.

Improvisation should be thought of, first and foremost, as a form of language no different in principle than speaking a verbal language such as English, Spanish, etc.

Words are nothing more than sounds. Notes on your trumpet are also sounds. Producing words and producing notes on your trumpet have something in common: They both require a certain muscular coordination and airflow. The principles are exactly the same.

If I play a few random notes and then ask you to sing them most people would probably be able to sing them perfectly the first time they try whether or not they have any formal musical training. However, if I ask you to play the notes on your trumpet just based on listening to me play them most people will fumble around a bit, make some errors and maybe eventually get it right through a process of trial and error.

What's the difference? It's all the same notes whether you sing them or play them on your trumpet.

The difference is that you have already learned to coordinate the muscular movements and airflow necessary to automatically sing the notes the first time you try. You learned that coordination the same way you learned to speak verbal language. Singing the notes is just a form of verbal language.

However, you haven't learned to coordinate the muscular movements and airflow necessary to automatically play the notes on your trumpet the first time you try. That's because you haven't learned to automatically associate pitches (which are nothing more than sounds, just like words are nothing more than sounds) with the muscular movements and airflow necessary to produce those pitches.

The ability to automatically associate pitches with the muscular movements and airflow necessary to produce those pitches coupled with knowledge of jazz vocabulary are the two most important skills necessary to be fluent in jazz improvisation. You don't need technical knowledge of scales, chords or progressions to develop those skills.

The biggest problems I see in students who are struggling with improvisation are (1) their over-emphasis on the importance of technical knowledge, (2) their under-emphasis on ear training and (3) their lack of improvisational language (because they haven't listened to enough professional improvisation for a long enough period of time to absorb the language they hear and make that language a part of their vocabulary). They are trying to improvise without command of the two most essential foundational skills: The ability to play by ear (automatically coordinate muscular movement and airflow with pitches) coupled with knowledge of improvisational language (jazz vocabulary).

The students have forgotten how they learned to speak verbal language. They all want to skip learning phonetics (ear training). They think technical knowledge is the key to be able to improvise fluently. They are wrong but they're so brainwashed into thinking otherwise that they resist going back to the beginning to just learn improvisation the same way they learned their native language: From the bottom up with phonetics (automatically coordinating muscular movement and airflow with producing the desired sound (pitch)). This resistance dooms them to what we so frequently hear: Improvisation sounding like a baby incoherently babbling instead of sounding like Shakespeare in his most eloquent fluency.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok...but back to my comments about a piano player or a guitar player....they aren't going through all those issues, and shooting in the dark with what pitch the decide to pay.

They make specific choices to fit harmonically with the progression of the tune.

Otherwise you're playing darts while wearing a blindfold. Then they often never progress, and quit because they don't sound good.

Instead, they could just work on knowing their scales and how to build a chord. Then just work on making simple but SMART melodies. Even just working on three chord blues for a while. But making decisive intelligent choices on what is played, instead of swimming aimlessly until somebody tells you to stop.
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Hugh Anderson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are way beyond beginners. Playing 'Yankee Doodle', or some other song, without the music, without having memorized it, in 2 or 3 common keys is playing by ear, and necessary before the jazz elements come in to play.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
. . . imagine if the bass player and piano player showed up to a gig and just "played by ear"?? It would be a disaster.


I think you are making a very condescending comment/concept here. It ignores the thousands of ear players I, and I suppose many others, have played with MANY times with who are "musically illiterate". These players couldn't analyze squat but they sure could play.

There's no doubt that, especially with complex tunes, it's advantageous to know written theory, but that certainly doesn't dismiss the decades of players who play by ear. Sure, it may be important for a bass and keyboard player to play the same chords on a tune but there's no reason they can't agree on those chords by word-of-mouth, i.e. aurally.

Playing by ear is not necessarily a disaster.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The biggest problems I see in students who are struggling with improvisation are (1) their over-emphasis on the importance of technical knowledge, (2) their under-emphasis on ear training and (3) their lack of improvisational language (because they haven't listened to enough professional improvisation for a long enough period of time to absorb the language they hear and make that language a part of their vocabulary). They are trying to improvise without command of the two most essential foundational skills: The ability to play by ear (automatically coordinate muscular movement and airflow with pitches) coupled with knowledge of improvisational language (jazz vocabulary).

The students have forgotten how they learned to speak verbal language. They all want to skip learning phonetics (ear training). They think technical knowledge is the key to be able to improvise fluently. They are wrong but they're so brainwashed into thinking otherwise that they resist going back to the beginning to just learn improvisation the same way they learned their native language: From the bottom up with phonetics (automatically coordinating muscular movement and airflow with producing the desired sound (pitch)). This resistance dooms them to what we so frequently hear: Improvisation sounding like a baby incoherently babbling instead of sounding like Shakespeare in his most eloquent fluency.


So much truth.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
. . . imagine if the bass player and piano player showed up to a gig and just "played by ear"?? It would be a disaster.


I think you are making a very condescending comment/concept here. It ignores the thousands of ear players I, and I suppose many others, have played with MANY times with who are "musically illiterate". These players couldn't analyze squat but they sure could play.

There's no doubt that, especially with complex tunes, it's advantageous to know written theory, but that certainly doesn't dismiss the decades of players who play by ear. Sure, it may be important for a bass and keyboard player to play the same chords on a tune but there's no reason they can't agree on those chords by word-of-mouth, i.e. aurally.

Playing by ear is not necessarily a disaster.


If the rhythm section was "playing by ear" not only would it be a disaster, but it would be an impossibility. If they didn't know the changes, and just showed up and jumped in and started playing, the tune wouldn't happen.

But yet it's somehow acceptable for a horn player, who doesn't know the changes, to just show up sit it, not know the changes and play "find the relative pitch" by just using his ear?

Not in my band thank you.

I think improvising and playing jazz is a discipline that requires a skill set beyond hunting and pecking for right notes. If you don't know the changes for a tune...go home...shed the tune, learn the form, and be ready next time. Don't just sit in, play a bunch of nonsense and irritate the rest of the guys in the band. It's no fun for anybody.

A horn player while improvising should be no different than the other guys in the unit. The piano player, bass player, and if there is a guitar player ALL have to know the form and changes for the tune to be played. The horn player is not special. He also needs to have respect for the band and the art, and should be prepared if he decides to solo over a given tune.

Improvising is a discipline. If you want to excel and be respected by others in that discipline, you have to put in the work.

If the band is jive and nobody cares and it's a slop-fest...have at it. But like I said not in my band, or on my gigs thank you very much. And that's the opinion of most working cats I've come across with working in jazz circles.

Gotta put in the work beyond just "playing by ear" if you really want to learn to improvise.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I examined a lot of students who played by ear. It was really so frustrating. As a lot of members are saying, I really endorse learning some "vocab", and apply it over different keys. Don't go for too much though, just one or two simple licks. (dom 7 best place to start)
Ear is definitely very important. Transcribing will help, and you'll pick up some licks along the way. Pick a simple little tune too and try it over different keys.

I studied under Richard Evans (Bass player - look him up). His comment was more related to arranging, but he stated to me that "he could learn in here (college) in a year what took him 10 years to learn out there".

Rob
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
If the rhythm section was "playing by ear" not only would it be a disaster, but it would be an impossibility. If they didn't know the changes, and just showed up and jumped in and started playing, the tune wouldn't happen.

But yet it's somehow acceptable for a horn player, who doesn't know the changes, to just show up sit it, not know the changes and play "find the relative pitch" by just using his ear?

Not in my band thank you.

I think improvising and playing jazz is a discipline that requires a skill set beyond hunting and pecking for right notes. If you don't know the changes for a tune...go home...shed the tune, learn the form, and be ready next time. Don't just sit in, play a bunch of nonsense and irritate the rest of the guys in the band. It's no fun for anybody.

A horn player while improvising should be no different than the other guys in the unit. The piano player, bass player, and if there is a guitar player ALL have to know the form and changes for the tune to be played. The horn player is not special. He also needs to have respect for the band and the art, and should be prepared if he decides to solo over a given tune.

Improvising is a discipline. If you want to excel and be respected by others in that discipline, you have to put in the work.

If the band is jive and nobody cares and it's a slop-fest...have at it. But like I said not in my band, or on my gigs thank you very much. And that's the opinion of most working cats I've come across with working in jazz circles.

Gotta put in the work beyond just "playing by ear" if you really want to learn to improvise.


The primary conflicts here are in how you define "playing by ear" and how you define "knowing the changes."

Players who can "play by ear" proficiently are not hunting and pecking and guessing about what they're playing. They don't think of the notes as "notes." They think of the notes as "pitches" they have trained themselves to play automatically by ear. The names of the notes are irrelevant to them. Similarly the names of the chords are irrelevant to them because they can hear the components of the chords and can respond automatically inside or outside the chords as they choose. Such players might not be able to name the changes but they certainly "know the changes."

Chet Baker was famous as an "ear player." He couldn't lecture to a music theory class because he wasn't educated in music theory. That didn't stop him from being one of the most proficient improvisers in jazz history.

If you are proficient at "playing by ear" and you have acquired a jazz vocabulary you've "put in the work" to be a proficient improviser without the necessity of book learning.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
If the rhythm section was "playing by ear" not only would it be a disaster, but it would be an impossibility. If they didn't know the changes, and just showed up and jumped in and started playing, the tune wouldn't happen.

But yet it's somehow acceptable for a horn player, who doesn't know the changes, to just show up sit it, not know the changes and play "find the relative pitch" by just using his ear?

Not in my band thank you.

I think improvising and playing jazz is a discipline that requires a skill set beyond hunting and pecking for right notes. If you don't know the changes for a tune...go home...shed the tune, learn the form, and be ready next time. Don't just sit in, play a bunch of nonsense and irritate the rest of the guys in the band. It's no fun for anybody.

A horn player while improvising should be no different than the other guys in the unit. The piano player, bass player, and if there is a guitar player ALL have to know the form and changes for the tune to be played. The horn player is not special. He also needs to have respect for the band and the art, and should be prepared if he decides to solo over a given tune.

Improvising is a discipline. If you want to excel and be respected by others in that discipline, you have to put in the work.

If the band is jive and nobody cares and it's a slop-fest...have at it. But like I said not in my band, or on my gigs thank you very much. And that's the opinion of most working cats I've come across with working in jazz circles.

Gotta put in the work beyond just "playing by ear" if you really want to learn to improvise.


The primary conflicts here are in how you define "playing by ear" and how you define "knowing the changes."

Players who can "play by ear" proficiently are not hunting and pecking and guessing about what they're playing. They don't think of the notes as "notes." They think of the notes as "pitches" they have trained themselves to play automatically by ear. The names of the notes are irrelevant to them. Similarly the names of the chords are irrelevant to them because they can hear the components of the chords and can respond automatically inside or outside the chords as they choose. Such players might not be able to name the changes but they certainly "know the changes."

Chet Baker was famous as an "ear player." He couldn't lecture to a music theory class because he wasn't educated in music theory. That didn't stop him from being one of the most proficient improvisers in jazz history.

If you are proficient at "playing by ear" and you have acquired a jazz vocabulary you've "put in the work" to be a proficient improviser without the necessity of book learning.


This is jive.

Whether you play piano, bass, or a horn should make no difference. You have to understand the math and it's function to be able to intelligently compose/improvise a melody.

Relying on your ear and not "thinking of notes as notes" and reacting to what they hear instead of knowing what's coming next in a progression is an exercise in self centered, masturbatory musicality. If you are "reacting to what you hear" you can't work together as a unit, and if you need to hear something to react, you don't know the form or what's coming next...you're just wasting everybody's time, and you might as well just stay at home and play with Abersold records.

Because you're not communicating with the rhythm section and you're not a part of the unit if you're only reacting to what you hear and have no regard for the form or understanding of the function of changes, to dictate what you're going to play... that's not jazz.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Sr. Benge, no music based harmonic structures or concepts on other than "changes" can be considered jazz? Ornette Coleman did not play jazz?
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djpearlman wrote:
So, Sr. Benge, no music based harmonic structures or concepts on other than "changes" can be considered jazz? Ornette Coleman did not play jazz?


Before you can jump into the esoteric spectrum of free jazz, you should first have at least an elementary understanding of how to play tunes on a cocktail gig.

I'm amazed people can't understand that concept.

If you like free jazz, that's great. Any gigs for the avant-garde these days? Or would you have better luck being able to play standards on a straight ahead set??
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please define what does it mean (to you) "to play by ear". It looks that this phrase is interpreted differently by posters above. A few possibilities:

1) play without knowing the tune, but knowing the changes (rhythm section got handed out the chords and saw them for the first time ever),
2) play without knowing the changes, but knowing the tune (everyone thought they knew the chords but it turned out different),
3) play without knowing either the tune or the changes (forgot to learn the tune OR two different tunes with the same name),
4) play without knowing anymore anything about playing (usually under influence of copious amounts of alcohol),
5) play knowing what should sound, how should it sound and when (that would be the definition of an aural player),
6) play knowing correct theory but not being able to apply it (frequent result of one-sided education),
7) play using theory that does not apply to the idiom in which you are performing (being at the wrong gig).


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