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Arjuna
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 Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Learn theory then forget it.
Play sound through intuition. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Arjuna wrote: | Learn theory then forget it.
Play sound through intuition. |
This is insane. Please reread the OP's first post. Then read about Lee Konitz, and his 10 step approach, and look at his examples on the bottom of the page.
http://www.melmartin.com/html_pages/Interviews/konitz.html
Then go back to talking about landscapes, and sunshine, and intuition and whatever other nonsense you've been blathering about. And those of us hungry to understand form, function, composing and improvising can shed some of Konitz's motif ideas and expressions as outlined to improve our melodies. And use them on paying gigs. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Borrowed from another thread**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnBr070vcNE[/url]
Look at how many beautiful options are available when you use math, and theory in your compositions. It's limitless.
Talk about a REAL ear player. That cat in the video is brilliant!
I've spent half my life trying to understand harmony and theory and no matter how much more time I invest I'll never have a mind like his. But I still try, and learn something new almost everyday. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Here's a quote about jazz improvisation from Stan Getz:
“It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.”
Here's the definition of "extemporaneous:" Done, spoken or performed without special advance preparation; impromptu;; happening suddenly and often unexpectedly and usually without clearly known causes or relationships.
The antonym of "extemporaneous" is "Memorized."
If you can hear a scale in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the scale but can't name the notes or name the scale have you learned the scale? In my view you have learned the scale for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
If you can hear a chord in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the chord and stay within the chord but can't name the chord or the notes comprising the chord have you learned the chord? In my view you have learned the chord for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
This is the essence of what "playing by ear" is all about: Being able to speak the jazz vocabulary fluently based on what you hear in your head and what you hear from others as spontaneously, extemporaneously, naturally and effortlessly as you are able to speak the vocabulary of verbal language.
It can take a long time to be able to do this but this is the most important skill you can develop in your pursuit to become proficient in jazz improvisation.
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | Here's a quote about jazz improvisation from Stan Getz:
“It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.”
Here's the definition of "extemporaneous:" Done, spoken or performed without special advance preparation; impromptu;; happening suddenly and often unexpectedly and usually without clearly known causes or relationships.
The antonym of "extemporaneous" is "Memorized."
If you can hear a scale in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the scale but can't name the notes or name the scale have you learned the scale? In my view you have learned the scale for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
If you can hear a chord in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the chord and stay within the chord but can't name the chord or the notes comprising the chord have you learned the chord? In my view you have learned the chord for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
This is the essence of what "playing by ear" is all about: Being able to speak the jazz vocabulary fluently based on what you hear in your head and what you hear from others as spontaneously, extemporaneously, naturally and effortlessly as you are able to speak the vocabulary of verbal language.
It can take a long time to be able to do this but this is the most important skill you can develop in your pursuit to become proficient in jazz improvisation. |
Tell that to the college kids in the vid I posted, or players and teachers like Barry Harris, or Lee Konitz. Or any professor at a reputable jazz school at a University.
If we are play a rhythm changes tune, and before we start somebody decides they want to play an altered bridge and verbally explains the form in just numbers or takes the time to spell out the chord progression, an ear player would be lost.
He'd say "lemme hear you guys play a couple choruses and I'll figure it out" at best. But probably be in the corner noodling on his horn looking for target notes and not fool anybody when he makes his attempt to blow over the new changes. And never be asked to work with those guys again.
To really be a proficient improviser you have to put in the work first. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | Here's a quote about jazz improvisation from Stan Getz:
“It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.”
Here's the definition of "extemporaneous:" Done, spoken or performed without special advance preparation; impromptu;; happening suddenly and often unexpectedly and usually without clearly known causes or relationships.
The antonym of "extemporaneous" is "Memorized."
If you can hear a scale in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the scale but can't name the notes or name the scale have you learned the scale? In my view you have learned the scale for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
If you can hear a chord in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the chord and stay within the chord but can't name the chord or the notes comprising the chord have you learned the chord? In my view you have learned the chord for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
This is the essence of what "playing by ear" is all about: Being able to speak the jazz vocabulary fluently based on what you hear in your head and what you hear from others as spontaneously, extemporaneously, naturally and effortlessly as you are able to speak the vocabulary of verbal language.
It can take a long time to be able to do this but this is the most important skill you can develop in your pursuit to become proficient in jazz improvisation. |
Tell that to the college kids in the vid I posted, or players and teachers like Barry Harris, or Lee Konitz. Or any professor at a reputable jazz school at a University.
If we are play a rhythm changes tune, and before we start somebody decides they want to play an altered bridge and verbally explains the form in just numbers or takes the time to spell out the chord progression, an ear player would be lost.
He'd say "lemme hear you guys play a couple choruses and I'll figure it out" at best. But probably be in the corner noodling on his horn looking for target notes and not fool anybody when he makes his attempt to blow over the new changes. And never be asked to work with those guys again.
To really be a proficient improviser you have to put in the work first. |
Wrong again.
If you speak the language of the proficient ear player, that is, you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing.
Stan Getz had a photographic memory: He only needed to hear it once and he could produce genius level solos BY EAR. He had converted all the textbooks on theory to sounds he heard in his head. If he could hear it he knew exactly what you were talking about. Getz was versed in textbook theory as well but it was his ability to play by ear that distinguished him as a great improvisational jazz artist.
Your inability to understand this concept, or your unwillingness to understand this concept, as the case may be, is stupefying. 
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | Here's a quote about jazz improvisation from Stan Getz:
“It’s like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn sentences, which are the chords. And then you talk extemporaneously with the horn. It’s a wonderful thing to speak extemporaneously, which is something I’ve never gotten the hang of. But musically I love to talk just off the top of my head. And that’s what jazz music is all about.”
Here's the definition of "extemporaneous:" Done, spoken or performed without special advance preparation; impromptu;; happening suddenly and often unexpectedly and usually without clearly known causes or relationships.
The antonym of "extemporaneous" is "Memorized."
If you can hear a scale in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the scale but can't name the notes or name the scale have you learned the scale? In my view you have learned the scale for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
If you can hear a chord in your head and can spontaneously and fluently play the chord and stay within the chord but can't name the chord or the notes comprising the chord have you learned the chord? In my view you have learned the chord for the purposes of jazz improvisation.
This is the essence of what "playing by ear" is all about: Being able to speak the jazz vocabulary fluently based on what you hear in your head and what you hear from others as spontaneously, extemporaneously, naturally and effortlessly as you are able to speak the vocabulary of verbal language.
It can take a long time to be able to do this but this is the most important skill you can develop in your pursuit to become proficient in jazz improvisation. |
Tell that to the college kids in the vid I posted, or players and teachers like Barry Harris, or Lee Konitz. Or any professor at a reputable jazz school at a University.
If we are play a rhythm changes tune, and before we start somebody decides they want to play an altered bridge and verbally explains the form in just numbers or takes the time to spell out the chord progression, an ear player would be lost.
He'd say "lemme hear you guys play a couple choruses and I'll figure it out" at best. But probably be in the corner noodling on his horn looking for target notes and not fool anybody when he makes his attempt to blow over the new changes. And never be asked to work with those guys again.
To really be a proficient improviser you have to put in the work first. |
Wrong again.
If you speak the language of the proficient ear player, that is, you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing.
Stan Getz had a photographic memory: He only needed to hear it once and he could produce genius level solos BY EAR. He had converted all the textbooks on theory to sounds he heard in his head. If he could hear it he knew exactly what you were talking about. Getz was versed in textbook theory as well but it was his ability to play by ear that distinguished him as a great improvisational jazz artist.
Your inability to understand this concept, or your unwillingness to understand this concept, as the case may be, is stupefying. |
In academia, why aren't there classes teaching abstract ear playing? Throw away paper and textbooks. Forget theory, scales, harmony, and all math. Just listen and blow!!
Because it's a joke.
If you want to be proficient you have to know what the heck you are doing, and what the music you're playing dictates. Otherwise...and trust me on this...you are just a punchline to the guys you get to play with...probably just that one time.
You say, "im an artist, theory and studying, and the math is a waste of time and stifles my creativity"...all the way to the unemployment line. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: |
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"you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying.
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying. |
Ignorant and naive |
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mm55
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Many jazz students spend a lot of time studying jazz theory; analyzing chord progressions and scales and their interrelationships. It can be a very important part of learning the art of jazz improvisation. For those who haven't yet leaned to play by ear, such theoretical analysis can be adequate in many contexts, especially for developing young players.
If you haven't advanced to the point where you can recognize altered harmony in a bridge, by ear, in real time as it happens; then yes, it can help to have it explained to you before playing the song ... as might happen in music school. If you can't play by ear, then yes, theoretical analysis can help you work around that limitation. Plenty of musicians get by with music-school improvisation, without ever advancing to mastery. But such students are rarely at the top of the game.
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, all of the military band cats, almost all with degrees, some with masters degrees in jazz studies. I guess their playing is "adequate " in their playing contexts.
In NYC all of the professors from NYU, New School, MSM, Juilliard, Purchase, and CUNY....and all their students who dominate the playing scene. Bunch of adequate players I guess as well. Even though those are the cats who get the gigs and calls to play with headliners and respected leaders. Just dumb luck I guess.
The ear playing "artists" creating landscapes, and spectrums of colors and stream of consciousness style playing, instead of using theory and math to approach form and function when soloing.....are absent at those headlining or respected clubs and gigs.
There's always place to play on subway platforms and city parks for those "artists" I suppose....if that's your goal. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying. |
Ignorant and naive |
I think I get it now. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY BY EAR. You don't understand the concept. If Stan Getz or Chet Baker asked you to play something so they could hear it instead of listening to you spout off "theory" you'd fire them off the bandstand (or never hire them in the first place) because you'd classify them as "ignorant and naive." WOW!!
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying. |
Ignorant and naive |
I think I get it now. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY BY EAR. You don't understand the concept. If Stan Getz or Chet Baker asked you to play something so they could hear it instead of listening to you spout off "theory" you'd fire them off the bandstand (or never hire them in the first place) because you'd classify them as "ignorant and naive." WOW!! |
No, my ear is quite trained. I transcribe solos by ear, memorize them, write them out, I know more tunes than most, and can easily play the tunes and forms in whatever key you like. I can hear what is going on, if a rhythm section is doing, or if a soloist is stepping out of the changes or if the rhythm section is slipping out to some alteration.
But that's only PART of the deal. You have to know the theory, math, and always be learning more and more. But an ONLY ear player who is ignorant to theory or thinks changes or form is "irrelevant " are naive and ignorant...and won't get hired.
Wow...tell me more about your first hand accounts of your hanging with Stan Getz and Chet....were you on the road with them, roommates, family friends? You seem to know them so intimately....please tell us some more about your close friendships with those guys and how you are so certain of their playing styles and thought processes.
Facinating  |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying. |
Ignorant and naive |
I think I get it now. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY BY EAR. You don't understand the concept. If Stan Getz or Chet Baker asked you to play something so they could hear it instead of listening to you spout off "theory" you'd fire them off the bandstand (or never hire them in the first place) because you'd classify them as "ignorant and naive." WOW!! |
No, my ear is quite trained. I transcribe solos by ear, memorize them, write them out, I know more tunes than most, and can easily play the tunes and forms in whatever key you like. I can hear what is going on, if a rhythm section is doing, or if a soloist is stepping out of the changes or if the rhythm section is slipping out to some alteration.
But that's only PART of the deal. You have to know the theory, math, and always be learning more and more. But an ONLY ear player who is ignorant to theory or thinks changes or form is "irrelevant " are naive and ignorant...and won't get hired.
Wow...tell me more about your first hand accounts of your hanging with Stan Getz and Chet....were you on the road with them, roommates, family friends? You seem to know them so intimately....please tell us some more about your close friendships with those guys and how you are so certain of their playing styles and thought processes.
Facinating |
My, my. We are very defensive, aren't we?
One of my teachers studied with Stan Getz. He is currently the Director of Jazz Studies at a major university which has produced multiple Downbeat Magazine award winning students. I showed him this thread. He provided me with the Stan Getz quote. He says that my position is consistent with Stan Getz's position. He agrees, as I do, that knowledge of theory is beneficial to the ability to improvise proficiently. However, he agrees that the two things most lacking in students are the inability to play by ear and the lack of a sufficient jazz vocabulary.
Any more questions?
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Again, this thread was about Lee Konitz and his approach. Did you visit the linked web page? Read the material? Look at his examples?
http://www.melmartin.com/html_pages/Interviews/konitz.html
If you've ever seen Lee play live, he never calls tunes, or a key, or even counts off a tune. He just starts playing. But he and his rhythm section know the tunes inside and out, understand each other's playing and know the theory and math inside and out.
Read a little about Lee's approach, or any of the guys from the Tristano school. These guys are lifelong students. Always striving to be better and smarter and more creative.
I've seen Lee "gently" ask players to stop playing on his band stand. Known guys. And say something like "we're just going to do some trio stuff for a tune or two" and then NEVER ask the other guy back up to play. I've seen this several times. That has to be humbling...and probably send that player into the shed to learn his stuff before ever showing up and playing with another master again. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | "you play the sound you want so the proficient ear player can hear it, the proficient ear player will not be lost, noodling or guessing. "
So he has to "hear it" before he can play. So if I want to alter a bridge, as I said earlier, on a tune we are about to play....I talk the changes with numbers or spell out the progression...by your admission in statement, the ear player must HEAR IT first, before being able to execute a solo?
That's weak and a simple minded way to approach improvising, because you don't understand theory or form and are unable to perform, and dive in...unless you hear the form first. |
Stupifying. |
Ignorant and naive |
I think I get it now. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY BY EAR. You don't understand the concept. If Stan Getz or Chet Baker asked you to play something so they could hear it instead of listening to you spout off "theory" you'd fire them off the bandstand (or never hire them in the first place) because you'd classify them as "ignorant and naive." WOW!! |
No, my ear is quite trained. I transcribe solos by ear, memorize them, write them out, I know more tunes than most, and can easily play the tunes and forms in whatever key you like. I can hear what is going on, if a rhythm section is doing, or if a soloist is stepping out of the changes or if the rhythm section is slipping out to some alteration.
But that's only PART of the deal. You have to know the theory, math, and always be learning more and more. But an ONLY ear player who is ignorant to theory or thinks changes or form is "irrelevant " are naive and ignorant...and won't get hired.
Wow...tell me more about your first hand accounts of your hanging with Stan Getz and Chet....were you on the road with them, roommates, family friends? You seem to know them so intimately....please tell us some more about your close friendships with those guys and how you are so certain of their playing styles and thought processes.
Facinating |
My, my. We are very defensive, aren't we?
One of my teachers studied with Stan Getz. He is currently the Director of Jazz Studies at a major university which has produced multiple Downbeat Magazine award winning students. I showed him this thread. He provided me with the Stan Getz quote. He says that my position is consistent with Stan Getz's position. He agrees, as I do, that knowledge of theory is beneficial to the ability to improvise proficiently. However, he agrees that the two things most lacking in students are the inability to play by ear and the lack of a sufficient jazz vocabulary.
Any more questions? |
Far from defensive, more frustrated with your blatant stubbornness and ignorance.....so your Stan Getz references you present, are from what you heard from what your teacher heard....that's called triple hearsay in courts. But whatever.
Play however you want. I really don't care. Good luck getting calls for gigs
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Or be sure to keep your case wide open so folks can throw nickels and dimes in after hearing your playing on a street corner or at the subway station.
Keep a rock handy to keep the bills from flying away in the breeze (that is if you get a dollar bill or two)
Stream of consciousness, landscapes, colors hahahahahaha oh boy... |
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Not sure why we think this is an "either-or" situation (playing by ear vs working on a strong theoretical foundation).
With jazz, we often talk about silver bullets, which promise magical outcomes. As a result, people often think a person must do one thing to be successful. I usually disagree with this argument. This is because I don't believe in silver bullets.
My feeling is that you shouldn't search for that "one thing", and instead try everything. Developing your ear is by no means exclusive to working on theory. Try both approaches. Try everything. And if something works for you, do more of it.
Mike
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mm55
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | Stream of consciousness, landscapes, colors hahahahahaha oh boy... |
Nobody here has been aguing in favor of stream of consciousness, landscapes, and colors, whatever they may be, but I guess it's easier for you to vanquish yet another spectre from Trumpet Sanity's Big Book Of Strawmen than to understand why mastery may involve moving beyond theory classes.
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