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Ideal Solo Order


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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Larry Smithee wrote:
I'm sitting here thinking like an audience member. Would I want to sit through a marathon of solo blues choruses for that many players? If they're world class, okay I could deal with it. Otherwise, no. I would likely just get up and leave around the 3rd or 4th soloist. Life's way too short.


trickg wrote:
Oh - and like Larry said, limit it to 3 soloists. Even I get bored listening to more than that and I'm a musician.

There's an illogic to this - they came specifically to hear a band play music - you think they're likely to be impatient for the band to stop playing music?

I often sit through the credits at movies if it's music I like to get my money's worth listening to the big sound system.

There's nothing illogical about this. While I can acknowledge that you might sit through the credits at a movie just to hear the music, you are not the average person.

Even someone specifically going to a venue to hear a band play is going to get bored with a bunch of solos. The only people who really get it and understand it are other musicians, and even I have my limits.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Robert P wrote:
Larry Smithee wrote:
I'm sitting here thinking like an audience member. Would I want to sit through a marathon of solo blues choruses for that many players? If they're world class, okay I could deal with it. Otherwise, no. I would likely just get up and leave around the 3rd or 4th soloist. Life's way too short.


trickg wrote:
Oh - and like Larry said, limit it to 3 soloists. Even I get bored listening to more than that and I'm a musician.

There's an illogic to this - they came specifically to hear a band play music - you think they're likely to be impatient for the band to stop playing music?

I often sit through the credits at movies if it's music I like to get my money's worth listening to the big sound system.

There's nothing illogical about this. While I can acknowledge that you might sit through the credits at a movie just to hear the music, you are not the average person.

Even someone specifically going to a venue to hear a band play is going to get bored with a bunch of solos. The only people who really get it and understand it are other musicians, and even I have my limits.


Especially with a blues...12 bars...over and over and over and over agin??

A small handful of focused people might enjoy it. But the average person listening to the repetition of the same 12 bars will having wandering minds after the second of third chorus, and by the 15th chorus will be considering life ending choices to avoid having to hear anymore of the seemingly endless monotony.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
...and by the 15th chorus will be considering life ending choices to avoid having to hear anymore of the seemingly endless monotony.

I literally LOLed when I read that.
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
But the average person listening to the repetition of the same 12 bars will having wandering minds after the second of third chorus...


Crap, I've been doing it wrong for 35 years. Oh well.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazz_trpt wrote:
Benge.nut wrote:
But the average person listening to the repetition of the same 12 bars will having wandering minds after the second of third chorus...


Crap, I've been doing it wrong for 35 years. Oh well.


We're all different and have different tastes.

The blues form can be played a zillion different ways. Tons of forms, subs, options...really limitless.

Often it seems, especially with amateur and novice players...it's the same 3 chords and blues scales. Which can bore me to tears. And 24 choruses of the same thing can bring anybody to the brink of madness. It's like attending a seminar of the intricacies of filling in tax forms.

But that's just me. And I watch the audience often turn to zombies and clearly getting bored and stale eyed on gigs and shows I've attended when their are extended ongoing never ending solos.

The only thing worse for me are free jazz ensembles. But like I said what one guy hates another may love...it's all subjective.
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SALUKIGUY
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We use Route 66 as our jam tune. Solo order is usually tenor, trumpet, alto, bone. The arrangement also has a 12 bar piano solo break built in. Sometimes we do 12 bars and sometimes 24. I like 24 better so you have more time to develop ideas. Many people are up dancing to it so I don't think it matters that it goes a couple minutes more.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite band had a leader that would stand in front of the group and just point when he wanted one soloist to wrap it up and who he wanted to start. He also would cue in the background figures for the tunes that had them. It was never predetermined and always at the leader's discretion. I learned that if you didn't want to take a solo, don't make eye contact with the leader during the solo sections.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
My favorite band had a leader that would stand in front of the group and just point when he wanted one soloist to wrap it up and who he wanted to start. He also would cue in the background figures for the tunes that had them. It was never predetermined and always at the leader's discretion. I learned that if you didn't want to take a solo, don't make eye contact with the leader during the solo sections.


We have one particular singer who will, totally at random, call for a solo, sometimes for the first time in that particular song. I've learned to very quietly and unobtrusively (off-mike of course) noodle around a little in preparation, just in case, when he starts doing that.

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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Ideal Solo Order Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Our swing band typically winds up a performance with C Jam Blues with 24 bar solos by six different players.

However, we don't agree on the best solo order for maximum inpact.

People are insisting they think six solos is a drag for the audience - have you ever gotten a complaint about it?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, people don't usually complain. They just don't come back.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Ideal Solo Order Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
jhatpro wrote:
Our swing band typically winds up a performance with C Jam Blues with 24 bar solos by six different players.

However, we don't agree on the best solo order for maximum inpact.

People are insisting they think six solos is a drag for the audience - have you ever gotten a complaint about it?


kehaulani wrote:
In my experience, people don't usually complain. They just don't come back.

Okay, jhatpro, have you experienced dwindling crowd sizes?
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
In my experience, people don't usually complain. They just don't come back.

If there's a dance floor, you can tell that the jam has worn out its welcome when people start to leave the dance floor before the tune ends.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Ideal Solo Order Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
How would you position alto, tenor, bari, trumpet, trombone, guitar.

I would alternate instrument families, starting with woodwind and brass.

Alto, trumpet, tenor, trombone, bari, then guitar.

And if the guitar player is the best soloist, then people will be glad they didn't get up and leave before his solo.

Don't forget, the original C Jam Blues had 4-bar solo breaks between soloists:

Link

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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a band has one soloist after another wailing away at maximum intensity on 24 bar blues solos, I agree it could get boring after awhile, just because the audience might become overwhelmed and numb to what's going on, especially if the soloists are playing random licks that don't seem to be going anywhere.

I think the reason the Jazz Masters Chocolate Sundae recording works so well is because there's an overarching development to the piece, the rhythm section plays to follow the plan, and each soloist understands his role to make the plan work.

Their soloist selection and plan isn't the only way to go, but it works because they have a plan and follow it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point about interludes is a good one. Doesn't have to be long and it breaks up the potential monotony. Something to consider.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Oddly enough, my thought on the matter is that it doesn't matter....

This was also my initial reaction.

You have 6 musicians, each playing 2 choruses. That 12 choruses on a blues tune. A blues chorus is only 12 bars, which isn't much.

I play in a jazz trio (trumpet, piano, bass). When we solo on a blues song, we each take at least 4 choruses each, with the bass playing usually taking 2 choruses. That's at least 10 choruses in all.

If you think 12 is too much, but still want everyone to solo, then go back to the head once or twice to break things up --- 3 soloists, play the head with the band, then 3 more soloists.

Alternatively, if you feel you need to shorten the song, but still want to include everyone, then have each player solo on one 12-bar chorus, not two.

Mike
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Oncewasaplayer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we play blues tunes, people generally take two choruses. On the second chorus, we invent and play background figures.

Listen to the New Orleans Jazz Vipers on this cut. As they move to solos, the rest of the band are playing simple licks in the background. You can work those out ahead of time or on the fly. Check them out if you can in New Orleans.

[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c4ydyvqFMQ&index=20&list=PLTLO24X_Gpve8dPwtjQ8fbBENE731waNG[/youtube]
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Smeeth
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazzchamp08 wrote:
If you're going to have bass with all of that, I'd have them go first.


I agree, even the best of bass solos aren't the best at continuing a rise in energy. Bass should be early in the lineup.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smeeth wrote:
jazzchamp08 wrote:
If you're going to have bass with all of that, I'd have them go first.


I agree, even the best of bass solos aren't the best at continuing a rise in energy. Bass should be early in the lineup.


Bass solo= cigarette break, or trip to the men's room or bar for the listener (at least when I'm the listener)

Worse if it's an infinite blues saga of solos. There's only so many choruses of the same 12 bars ad nauseam, one can handle
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What? It all depends on the improviser, not the instrument. There are many exciting bass players out there.
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