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After 35 years is this really what one should expect.


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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: After 35 years is this really what one should expect. Reply with quote

I gave up the trumpet while playing at my best in February 1982. I found the timbre bright & lost my passion for it. The flugelhorn I always liked.

Recently I bought a Chinese 'Haqk' .460" bore flugelhorn, with good intonation. (People slam this Chinese Ebay horns, but some aren't too bad). I had planned on getting back my skill & strength in about as many months as years. So, I was a fairly strong player (lots of endurance) after 3 years, so I assumed after four months tops I'd get back to that level. Keep in mind that there is a phenomenon known as muscle memory that goes equally for muscle strength & muscle skill & coordination. Both should come into play in a comeback.

So February 2cnd this year, right out of box I had major issues. Midrange was the hardest! We are talking f firsalveace at bottom of staff, to E first space at top. The sound was pinched in that region, & sometimes nothing but air. Upper range was surprisingly high (up to D) but thin. But that was maybe 2 D's per day before fatigue set it.

Has any comeback player had this happen? Attempting to do a rapid trill, the instrument could not be held steady enough to offset the hard & rapid alve motion. I couldn't believe that I couldn't play a damn trill even though ai knew how. NOW, I CAN do a trill, but still have no idea what I was doing wrong & what I am doing right now to accomplish it.

I steadily make progress buy it's slow. I can play with a pretty legato sound in the midrange (slur, not a legato tongue--though ai can do that too a bit). However, when a play a series of stacatto, or marcatto notes, the pitches have a tendency to droop, or glissando downwards like a beginner. This tends to take effect as fatigue sets in, but that doesn't take long! An attempt at a continuous phrase of staccotto quarter or eighth notes never lasts too long until the notes start to droop, & the sound gets kind of pinched AA if playing with a valve pushed partly down.

It does seem all about playing with no pressure. As soon as that buffer zone of air that separates my lips from my teeth weakens, I can't play. So what I am encountering now I guess falls under endurance. It seems that when the embouchure is strong enough to absolutely minimize pressure, my range & flexibility are good. However, as a youngster i t seems that I could use some pressure when I had to get by. (Long Memorial days marching in my HS bans, playing taps, then marching again for a couple hours with a nearby adult town band, & later playing a full concert in a park gazebo. Maybe 5-6 hours of playing.

The flugelhorn mouthpiece is deeper, & does require a slightly different pucker style embouchure from a more pursing style embouchure.

My mouthpiece is a pretty shallow Curry 3 FL-M. I can promise all of you I am using the same embouchure I had when I quit. Lastly, some will recommend making a trumpet or cornet a primary instrument to learn on. Not a good idea, I don't Luke trumpets.

But here us where I'm at after almost ten weeks. I will attempt to play Chuck amangione's Feel so AGoid, taken down a fifth, so the highest note is g. I don't quite have the endurance to get through the whole Tyne once (plated continually). Is this bad at 10 weeks. (Years ago I could play it on flugelhorn, but with a scrawny sounding Hugh D in the original key. (I probably could have played it well taken down a third.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are expecting to much of yourself.

I played trumpet for 12 years up to 1965 and quit when gigs were far and few between. So after 50 or so years I came back last spring. It took me a week to get above middle C and 3 months to get up to a high C. After 6 months I was playing good enough to join a community band as first chair. But all that took a regimen of daily practice that continues to today. Muscles may remember, but at 80 those muscles are not what they used to be. I remember playing 3 hour gigs back then, but I am lucky to play 90 minutes today before the upper lip quits vibrating. And I am still not the consistently good play I was back in the day. So I forget how good I was back then and just concentrate on improving as I move along, realizing I am a different cat now.

Take it easy on yourself. You are obviously younger than me so I am sure you will regain a lot of that ability you had back in your earlier days.

Good luck, my friend.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all welcome back to the insanity and frustration.

I would say thay that you are in the area of knowing enough to be dangerous... you've played in the passed, so now you are trying to jump back in, built upon those old feelings and memories..
Go get a lesson soon, before you redevelope those habits that will slow you down, inhibiit your progress and cause you frustration. Changing habits is a tedious process - adding even more frustration to an endevour that can already be frustrating.

No, I don't think your embouchure should change from Trumpet to Flugel - don't intentionally change your pucker. A curry FL-M is not terribly shallow - as marked a medium depth Flugel mouthpiece - and pretty deep compared to many M cups.
This is an example of the dangerous knowledge - making assumptions that are slightly off or built upon faulty logic.

I also suspect that the Flugel is not all that. Yes, good enough for a doubler to use - soemone that has solid skills on a trumpet then using the Flugel for short periods.. but for someone relearning and playing on it exclusively - maybe not the best choice - you do get what you pay for.

Get some lessons.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took me 12 years to get to the point where I felt competent. I really didn't mind. Took me 8 years the first time, after all, and I wasn't playing every day like I did when I was a kid.

Tom
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeB wrote:
I think you are expecting to much of yourself.

I played trumpet for 12 years up to 1965 and quit when gigs were far and few between. So after 50 or so years I came back last spring. It took me a week to get above middle C and 3 months to get up to a high C. After 6 months I was playing good enough to join a community band as first chair. But all that took a regimen of daily practice that continues to today. Muscles may remember, but at 80 those muscles are not what they used to be. I remember playing 3 hour gigs back then, but I am lucky to play 90 minutes today before the upper lip quits vibrating. And I am still not the consistently good play I was back in the day. So I forget how good I was back then and just concentrate on improving as I move along, realizing I am a different cat now.

Take it easy on yourself. You are obviously younger than me so I am sure you will regain a lot of that ability you had back in your earlier days.

Good luck, my friend.


Thank you
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just don't end up becoming one of the seemingly countless comeback players who can belt out some impressive high notes, but lack even basic fundamentals in the normal range. I've seen a number of disturbing videos in this vein recently...
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other observation from my personal experience, when I was young and playing, I was quite happy to hit the right notes. My taste is more sophisticated now. I quit playing after college and began my comeback about 18 months ago or so. Now, right notes are only a piece of the puzzle. I now want better articulation, better phrasing, better sound - a lot more nuance. In a word, my standards a lot higher now.

It is easy to get frustrated when you are trying to sound like Arturo Sandoval or like some of the clips that guys on this site have posted of themselves (Trent Austin, Eric Bolvin, Mac Gollehon, Michael Barkley and so forth - I love listening to them, but it's tough to compare yourself to them). You have to find joy in sounding as good as you do and not get discouraged because you don't sound like others. Stuff like the following is fun to listen to, but don't get hung up because you don't sound like these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_FWPNkle3I

Patience. Hard work. Learn to enjoy the journey.

Regards,
Grits
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
First of all welcome back to the insanity and frustration.

I would say thay that you are in the area of knowing enough to be dangerous... you've played in the passed, so now you are trying to jump back in, built upon those old feelings and memortrumpet
Go get a lesson soon, before you redevelope those habits that will slow you down, inhibiit your progress and cause you frustration. Changing habits is a tedious process - adding even more frustration to an endevour that can already be frustrating.

No, I don't think your embouchure should change from Trumpet to Flugel - don't intentionally change your pucker. A curry FL-M is not terribly shallow - as marked a medium depth Flugel mouthpiece - and pretty deep compared to many M cups.
This is an example of the dangerous knowledge - making assumptions that are slightly off or built upon faulty logic.

I also suspect that the Flugel is not all that. Yes, good enough for a doubler to use - soemone that has solid skills on a trumpet then using the Flugel for short periods.. but for someone relearning and playing on it exclusively - maybe not the best choice - you do get what you pay for.

Get some lessons.


As for the flugelhorn embouchure, look under the cornet/flugelhorn section & look up a thread entitled 'No more Airballs' & read how the general consensus is that the OP must learn to adjust to the deeper MP volume. I have personally borrowed someone's trumpet & found that because if the extra depth one instinctively must fill in SOME of that extra volume. A flugelhorn is a bit of a hybrid of a trumpet & French horn. One THF user plays French horn, trumpet, & flugelhorn concedes his French horn experience has put him at an advantage. My Curry FLM is .624" deep & relative to a trumpet mouthpiece it isn't shallow, & I attribute some of my present difficulties to having to adjust to that extra depth. (Maybe.....?)

OK, here goes. I think you are assuming too much. That is, how would you possibly know if there is anyone within even a 100 mile radius who knows what they're doing?

I started out self taught & one a local talent show. A local HS band director (not quite in my HS town, but close by) approached my parents & told them that I was about the most talented kid he ever saw. This HS teacher (a trombonist) had excellent credentials: studying with John Coffee @ BU; auditioned for Woody Herman & the Indianapolis symphony (1954) but took a HS teaching position instead because he had a kid on the way & felt the jib would have greater stability. (For the rest of his life he regretted turning down the Indianapolis gig.

First item on this teachers agenda was two major changes to my embouchure. The imimatatiin of these two changes was so gradual (as I kept reverting to my own natural embouchure) that it took almost a year. The changes were completely unnatural & rendered me incapable of playing, but I couldn't connect the dots because of the long time lapse. From that point on I couldn't play well, & this guy berated me for not "trying hard enough". This guy was so rigid that he forced his eldest daughter to take growth hormone suppressing pills that still didn't prevent her from being 5'11" full grown, but left her with maladies she attribruttes to those drugs. (She married my vest friend.)

After HS I studied privately with Rolf Smedvig (now deceased, but lived a charmed life & had NO frame of reference in terms of what is was like to not be gifted with such talent & not have successful musician parents coaching you from age 4.) I have to give him credit for trying & not giving up on me. But it was almost two years before he recognized my problem as embouchure related. He sent me around to many others including Armando Ghuitalla for help. In September 1977 Ghuitalla & Smedvig thought it would be a good idea to study with Charles Lewis.

Charlie was probably the best all around jazz/classical player up until Marsalis. But in 1975 he just completely lost it! He couldn't even play the small solo in "Morgan Music" with the EBQ. By '77 he was better, but not remotely himself. I studied sporadically with Charlie for 3 years. The truth is that up until 1982 (the last time I heard him) he NEVER had gotten it all back. Eventually he lost his gigs with the EBQ; NE Conservatory & BU. Now he teaches at Berklee where his bio reads that he specializes in "healing sick embouchures" (something to that effect) I don't know how he plays today, or how his students sound. I do know for a fact that in '79 or so, he became WAY to reliant on those James Stamp exercises. They are overrated in terms of coaxing the embouchure to migrate to its optimal position.

In 1981 I finally found a first rate teacher/embouchure specialist at UNH who had a series of 20-30 minute daily drills devised to actually facilitate the proper migration of an embouchure to its optimal natural position. I improved immensely & then quit on my own terms: because I wanted to, not because I had to.

So I hope you can see why I can't take your suugestuin entirely to heart. The truth is if Rolf was still alive & offered me lessons Dir free I wouldn't criss the street to go to them. Ditto for Charlie. If that NH teacher was out here I'd go for lessons in a heart beat, but....he'd probably not want to reach me if I just wanted to play flugelhorn.

But let's break down the concept of taking lessons. Only two things could actually take place 1) my teacher could assign etudes (Arban, Clarke, Schlossberg, Brandt, Sachse) some of which I can play from memory. 2) he can address an embouchure issue, & he'd probably do it the way that trombonist did: by fixing $hit that ain't broke. BTW, who really is an embouchure expert given how diverse & indivual embouchures are on good players?

If you think I am outhinking myself & in a state of "paralysis by analysis" I don't think so. I am trying to put myself in my child like state of mind that enabled me to play well. I remember in the 60s seeing Robert Preston tell Shirley Jones that his (charlatan) teaching method was such that when you whistle you don't think about doing it, you just do it! (Of course you gotta learn what keys to press down). But I distinctly remember that philosophy resonating, & I employed it with some success--literally learning to play & read mostly with a Tijuana Brass songbook & all their LPs. Maybe I should hunt down a copy of that book & get the CDs. LOL

I also play bass in a combo that actually does live gigging. We are all Gung Ho about the prospect of my playing flugelhorn in say, 4 out of 27 songs per set list. But I am not going to meet my deadline of playing live by June or July.

It boils down to I am doing something wrong & do need a teacher. You could very well be right (but who knows Jack Squat about what they are doung?) Or, its just a matter of time. I wrote this thread in order to really gauge comebacks in terms of time & progress.

All this said, I have far less faith in "experts" than you probably do.
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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If what your doing isn't getting you where you want to be, then try something else. change your approach, I realize that isn't much help, but i'm a comebacker that started over after twenty-five years and i wasn't getting anywhere when i began playing again. I decided to change my entire way of playing. I went from big mouthpieces to small mouthpieces, lots of pressure to just enough. lots of tension to less tension.
I started to leadpipe buzz, i do a routine the same way every single day to start my playing day. The point is I radically changed the way i was playing and approaching the horn from when i quit out of frustration around 1982.
Based on reading your last post though, you have answers for just about every scenario. Whats good, whats not, who can teach, who can't. You need to keep an open mind about trying new things with the horn, I agree with George though, take it easy on yourself, If you were that good that many years ago it should come back, rememeber, your also thirty-five years older than you were, it takes time. so enjoy the journey otherwise whats the point, this stuff is suppose to be fun.

good luck in your journey.

regards,

tom
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: After 35 years is this really what one should expect. Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:

1. Midrange was the hardest!
2. Attempting to do a rapid trill, the instrument could not be held steady enough to offset the hard & rapid alve motion.
3. can play with a pretty legato sound in the midrange (slur, not a legato tongue--though ai can do that too a bit). However, when a play a series of stacatto, or marcatto notes, the pitches have a tendency to droop, or glissando downwards like a beginner.
4. This tends to take effect as fatigue sets in, but that doesn't take long!
5. An attempt at a continuous phrase of staccotto quarter or eighth notes never lasts too long until the notes start to droop, & the sound gets kind of pinched AA if playing with a valve pushed partly down.

6. It does seem all about playing with no pressure. As soon as that buffer zone of air that separates my lips from my teeth weakens, I can't play.


#6 baffles me. I don't know how ANYONE can play with an AIR GAP between their lips and teeth. Are your teeth really closed and your lips pushed away from the teeth? Forget a flugel piece - I can't even play my TROMBONES that way! Teeth should be open about a quarter-inch (ish) and the lips rest against and are in fact supported somewhat BY the teeth. There is no reason to give up that support and blow the lips away from the teeth, letting a BUBBLE form there and effectively hanging your chops out to dangle in the wind - literally! If there IS a BUBBLE in front of the teeth, then guess what? All of #1-5 above happens (and worse), so while I can hardly believe it, I'm thinking that's exactly what you're doing...

All I can say is you must have monster chop strength to play such an impossibly hard way, so if you ever get it figured out right, if you ever go back to trumpet, you'll have notes that'll probably scare you.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: After 35 years is this really what one should expect. Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
#6 baffles me. I don't know how ANYONE can play with an AIR GAP between their lips and teeth. Are your teeth really closed and your lips pushed away from the teeth? Forget a flugel piece - I can't even play my TROMBONES that way! Teeth should be open about a quarter-inch (ish) and the lips rest against and are in fact supported somewhat BY the teeth. There is no reason to give up that support and blow the lips away from the teeth, letting a BUBBLE form there and effectively hanging your chops out to dangle in the wind - literally! If there IS a BUBBLE in front of the teeth, then guess what? All of #1-5 above happens (and worse), so while I can hardly believe it, I'm thinking that's exactly what you're doing...

All I can say is you must have monster chop strength to play such an impossibly hard way, so if you ever get it figured out right, if you ever go back to trumpet, you'll have notes that'll probably scare you.

What he said.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:


It boils down to I am doing something wrong & do need a teacher. You could very well be right (but who knows Jack Squat about what they are doung?)


Welcome to TH! I also play bass, and keys, and sing. I read at least 4 things that tip me off to wrong thinking in terms of your mechanics, which almost certainly translate into practicing bad habits.

Last time you played brass, the internet did not exist. Now distance is not a factor, with Skype. You can take lessons from great teachers anywhere, and this site has lists of VERY good teachers that do that. With all the variations of embouchure, Doc Reinhardt had all that figured out before I was born, and some of his students are alive and teaching. Chris LaBarbera being very notable. (Mr Hollywood on here) He'd get you on a straight path to progress very quickly!
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: After 35 years is this really what one should expect. Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
bassguy wrote:

1. Midrange was the hardest!
2. Attempting to do a rapid trill, the instrument could not be held steady enough to offset the hard & rapid alve motion.
3. can play with a pretty legato sound in the midrange (slur, not a legato tongue--though ai can do that too a bit). However, when a play a series of stacatto, or marcatto notes, the pitches have a tendency to droop, or glissando downwards like a beginner.
4. This tends to take effect as fatigue sets in, but that doesn't take long!
5. An attempt at a continuous phrase of staccotto quarter or eighth notes never lasts too long until the notes start to droop, & the sound gets kind of pinched AA if playing with a valve pushed partly down.

6. It does seem all about playing with no pressure. As soon as that buffer zone of air that separates my lips from my teeth weakens, I can't play.


#6 baffles me. I don't know how ANYONE can play with an AIR GAP between their lips and teeth. Are your teeth really closed and your lips pushed away from the teeth? Forget a flugel piece - I can't even play my TROMBONES that way! Teeth should be open about a quarter-inch (ish) and the lips rest against and are in fact supported somewhat BY the teeth. There is no reason to give up that support and blow the lips away from the teeth, letting a BUBBLE form there and effectively hanging your chops out to dangle in the wind - literally! If there IS a BUBBLE in front of the teeth, then guess what? All of #1-5 above happens (and worse), so while I can hardly believe it, I'm thinking that's exactly what you're doing...

All I can say is you must have monster chop strength to play such an impossibly hard way, so if you ever get it figured out right, if you ever go back to trumpet, you'll have notes that'll probably scare you.


No, what I mean is playing with minimal pressure. For me its the key to playing freely & fairly high. I do remember days in which I had to play hours & could get through the day applying enough pressure my mouthpiece got stuck, named in & had to be brought to a music store. It baffles me why its such an all or nothing venture. Minimal pressure or else, & can't use pressure as a crutch. No Bubble! There is small contact with the teeth & soft tissue. I can actually feel areas where the crooked portions of my teeth have lightly indented on the soft inner facial/lip tissue.

However, small air pockets do form way up on the uppermost portions of my cheeks, way above the embouchure, as I do experience perceptable back pressure that builds up. I don't remember that in the past

You know maybe I should get a cheap cornet just to make comparisons sporadically. I could see how plating similar passages on both instruments differ. I have noticed that when I borrowed my pal's trumpet, that when I slurred from the lowest harmonics C-g-c-e-g & back (going down to F#-c#-f#- etc) that far more facial movement takes place. On a flugel to get those low notes my jaw has to pry apart more (to open the aperture) than on the trumpet. I can use minimal facial movement slurring from low to high on s trumpet, compared to FG

BTW, at a certain point, I could really screach on the trumpet, but not long. I was good for maybe
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... OK, in that case, I think your idea about comparing on another horn might give you some insight as to what's going on. Think about fullness of the buzz and efficient air. A flugel almost sounds too pretty sometimes to really tell us the truth about what's going on inside the mouthpiece at the buzzing surface. For me, it inspires rather relaxed playing and a dynamic range that involves a lower overall volume. You just never really gas a flugel, while the occasion for that kind of playing is rather frequent on the trumpet. One could almost become a French horn player! *shudder*

That flugel in particular might be slotting a bit weird in the middle, too. My pTrumpet is like that. The rarefaction of the standing wave is probably just not as finely optimized the way it is in most pro trumpets. Gap becomes all the more important and obvious to how the pro horns play, in part because everything else is so refined.

You've got an endurance issue, but it may still be related to technique. The "drooping" staccato notes is evidence of collapsing air compression. This may be related to where and how you actually tongue the notes, how you stop the air or form the tongue arch, or maybe it's just a lack of support for your embouchure type. Collapsing air compression and/or collapse of the embouchure might be related if both are occurring.

For now, I would concentrate on maintaining air compression and blowing through the phrase even though it may have staccato notes. Also, working out with a P.E.T.E. helps me quite a bit with endurance.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
Hmmm... OK, in that case, I think your idea about comparing on another horn might give you some insight as to what's going on. Think about fullness of the buzz and efficient air. A flugel almost sounds too pretty sometimes to really tell us the truth about what's going on inside the mouthpiece at the buzzing surface. For me, it inspires rather relaxed playing and a dynamic range that involves a lower overall volume. You just never really gas a flugel, while the occasion for that kind of playing is rather frequent on the trumpet. One could almost become a French horn player! *shudder*

That flugel in particular might be slotting a bit weird in the middle, too. My pTrumpet is like that. The rarefaction of the standing wave is probably just not as finely optimized the way it is in most pro trumpets. Gap becomes all the more important and obvious to how the pro horns play, in part because everything else is so refined.

You've got an endurance issue, but it may still be related to technique. The "drooping" staccato notes is evidence of collapsing air compression. This may be related to where and how you actually tongue the notes, how you stop the air or form the tongue arch, or maybe it's just a lack of support for your embouchure type. Collapsing air compression and/or collapse of the embouchure might be related if both are occurring.

For now, I would concentrate on maintaining air compression and blowing through the phrase even though it may have staccato notes. Also, working out with a P.E.T.E. helps me quite a bit with endurance.


I really appreciate your attentiveness & help.Yesterday I was away, didnt practice & today I noticed a huge improvement all around. After reading ypur post last night, today I paid particular attention to the pressure issue. Frankly I had to split hairs discerning whether or not the most crooked protruding portions of my teeth were touching the inner soft tissue. While blowing there WAS quite an air bubble separating the teeth & MOST of the soft tissue. (Thst makes me wish I got my teeth straightened when my parents offered to get me braces.)

Your right about the drooping stacatro notes because that's how beginners sound. What is a P.E.T.E.?

Thanx
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2309
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bassguy, I hear that you have a very specific approach and desire to make that work for you... search out those that teach and understand that methodology and Skype, FaceTime, video chat... Quite often what we feel we are doing is not what is actually going on. Always good to have a second or third opinion.

BTW, my background is in NH.. UNH 78-84.. crossed paths with many of the same players/teachers.

I do get the sense that you are overthinking, over-manipulating embouchure and your approach - of course, I'm can only get this feeling from what you write not hear/seeing you play.
Take your time, even though you have a goal and deadline, your chops may not be on the same schedule. Play with a good fundamentally solid set-up, LET the sound happen, soft, slow and connected, middle of the staff, then expand from there. (IMO playing a series of staccato notes is a challenging endeavor-lots going on and a lot of technique involved-stable and controlled chops needed)

Still, I am also not a fan of doing all this chop work on a Flugel.. I would rather work the fundamentals on a Bb (trumpet or cornet) then play the Flugel enough to get/ keep the feel and sound you want. Transferring in that direction.

good luck man
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:

Still, I am also not a fan of doing all this chop work on a Flugel.. I would rather work the fundamentals on a Bb (trumpet or cornet) then play the Flugel enough to get/ keep the feel and sound you want. Transferring in that direction.

good luck man


Sound advice. Very sound advice.

Come to think of it I don't think I have ever "practiced" anything on flugelhorn beyond playing tunes. All of my practicing involving fundamentals, flexibility, any range stuff I did years ago, articulation work, was all done on my Bb

I found a small bore flugelhorn that I liked the sound of. Matching my mouthpiece rim was more important that a lot of the playability of my flugelhorn. I can move to flugelhorn the rims feel the same, and the rest is easy. Especially for as infrequently as I get to play my flug. A few passages here and there in big band stuff, maybe a solo, and small jazz cocktail settings. Maybe 10-15% of my playing is flugelhorn the rest is Bb.

Food for thought
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Bassguy, I hear that you have a very specific approach and desire to make that work for you... search out those that teach and understand that methodology and Skype, FaceTime, video chat... Quite often what we feel we are doing is not what is actually going on. Always good to have a second or third opinion.

BTW, my background is in NH.. UNH 78-84.. crossed paths with many of the same players/teachers.

I do get the sense that you are overthinking, over-manipulating embouchure and your approach - of course, I'm can only get this feeling from what you write not hear/seeing you play.
Take your time, even though you have a goal and deadline, your chops may not be on the same schedule. Play with a good fundamentally solid set-up, LET the sound happen, soft, slow and connected, middle of the staff, then expand from there. (IMO playing a series of staccato notes is a challenging endeavor-lots going on and a lot of technique involved-stable and controlled chops needed)

Still, I am also not a fan of doing all this chop work on a Flugel.. I would rather work the fundamentals on a Bb (trumpet or cornet) then play the Flugel enough to get/ keep the feel and sound you want. Transferring in that direction.

good luck man


Wow! Wasn't Doc Stibler about the best teacher ever?

I don't think I am oveerhinking anything. My approach is visceral, like when I started! I learned intstinctively by playing along with Heeb Alpert recordings & got to be a fairly strong player. My mental approach is to pick up play, & try to havw fun. (Though having the ability to break things down after the fact & report them here isn't exactly over thinking).

My game plan was to do things like download on tubemate really cool transcriptions of Stan Getz or Dexter Gordon playing Wave, Desafinado , Blue Bossa or Chet Baker playing Autumn Leaves. Any snags playing this or that lick? Invent my own etude based on the lick right then & there.

As for the recommendation to get lessons in Skype? First we have to discern that after less than 11 weeks playing, after a 35 year lay off, my rate of progress is normal or too slow. I was a pretty strong player casually playing on a small cornet after 2 1/2 to 3 years. At this point, I would rate my preswnt strength/endurance level in a big flugelhorn commensurate to where I was after about 6 months of playing my cornet. Is that slow progress?

I am beginning to think that I am not building up my endurance slowly enough. I reported a good day yesterday after taking 24 hours off. I couldn't stop yesterday, & today my playing isn't up to par. The lips are positively swollen & I am getting lots of air. I probably should be more disciplined in choosing what I practice, being consistent, & then increasing my practice 5 minutes each day.

About the notion of building up technique on a trumpet, not flugelhorn. There is a phenomenon called in sports medicine "negative transferrance". I remember reading about it in a book that was a compilation of articles written byZNautilus machine inventor Aurthur Jones & Dr. Ellington Darden. In that book many falacious conditioning methods were debunked. For example, women practicing their shot putting using a heavier man's shot put doesn't increase strength (not enough intense muscle stimulation) & only throws off the shot putter's skill

Performing any endeavor involving similar but different skills, using similar but different equipment tends to be counterproductive. Using tennis as a means of improving ones skills at badminton will hamper ones badminton game--as tennis requires a stiff wrist & badminton doesn't. (That isn't to say that if you want to play both you shouldn't). But ultimately, learning a skill that requires a tool should be practiced on the exact same tool. You don't get better at candlepin bowling by using a bigger ball with fingerholes. (Is candlepin bowling extant out there?)

I'm not absolutely sure, but I am inclined to think that the best tool upin which to learn flugelhorn is a flugelhorn. I think the belief one can't develop sound flugelhorn skills, without a strong trumpet playing foundation reflects a strong trumpeters' bias. They virtually have adopted a type of trumpeter players wholistic world view in whiich the flugelhorn is merely ancillary.. Also, teachers, in the interest of helping their students find playing & teaching opportunities, encourage well roundedness & versatility. Those players/educators don't share my personal repulsion* for the bright, strident nature if the trumpet---never their peesonal gial sm to ditch the trumpet & be a flugelhorn only guy like Chuck Mangione---so how do they know? What really is the basis of their "trumpet 1st & flugelhorn last" philosophy. Maybe some circular reasoning there---rationalization tradition because that simply the way it's done. If it really does have to boil down to having to practice trumpet in order to play a flugelhorn, I'll take neither.

* the trumpet is OK in certain settings, played by certain players & in small doses. Same deal with the iboe. Can you imagine Mahler's 6th or those Ruckert songs without oboe? Can you imagine the Carpenter's 'Lovers & other strangers' without oboe? That said, I wouldn't want to lusten to a boxed CD set of Heinz Holliger playing oboe cinterti for an afternoon..


Last edited by bassguy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge.nut wrote:
zaferis wrote:

Still, I am also not a fan of doing all this chop work on a Flugel.. I would rather work the fundamentals on a Bb (trumpet or cornet) then play the Flugel enough to get/ keep the feel and sound you want. Transferring in that direction.

good luck man


Sound advice. Very sound advice.

Come to think of it I don't think I have ever "practiced" anything on flugelhorn beyond playing tunes. All of my practicing involving fundamentals, flexibility, any range stuff I did years ago, articulation work, was all done on my Bb

I found a small bore flugelhorn that I liked the sound of. Matching my mouthpiece rim was more important that a lot of the playability of my flugelhorn. I can move to flugelhorn the rims feel the same, and the rest is easy. Especially for as infrequently as I get to play my flug. A few passages here and there in big band stuff, maybe a solo, and small jazz cocktail settings. Maybe 10-15% of my playing is flugelhorn the rest is Bb.

Food for thought


Thank for your advise, but I really don't like the sound of a trumpet. Frankly my passion for the trumpet diminished when I lost my passion for Harry James & the swing era. I did continue playing well into my teens & early 20s (burdening myself with the instrument) because I well well pasy my demeylanation periods (brain development peeiids) & it was too late to take up another instrument & become a virtuoso.
(Guitar was my first instrument, & I attribute what aptitude I exhibit as a bassist to early fundamental training--though I never practiced at guitar. But, I should have seriously considered bass & studied with Steve Swallow @ Berklee when I could have )

I always liked the flugelhorn & presently aspire to be a bassist who doubles on flugwlhorn now & then. (See my reply to Zafaris regarding "negative transfer" in sports medicine
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gwood66
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 301
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an article posted on the ITG website that accurately describes the comeback timeline. I found it pretty accurate. I constantly had to remind myself to slow down. You don't start out training for a marathon by running a marathon. Resting after each line you play is an absolute must if you don't do it already.

http://www.trumpetguild.org/resources/pedagogy/category/8-articles-and-essays

There is so much information available that it is easy to get paralyzed. I started out my comeback fretting about my embouchure and how it was developing. Once I internalized the Clarke/Gordon saying "forget about the lips, the only function of the lips is to vibrate", I stopped being paralyzed by fear of it developing incorrectly.
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