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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:13 pm Post subject: How perfected before you'll perform a piece in public? |
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I see various "amateur" performances - i.e. not a paid, concertizing performance - of difficult solo literature where the soloist might have a reasonable handle on some parts but it's clearly a work in progress - split/missed notes etc. where it would be rare to hear them by top-tier soloists. I'm referring to adult-aged players, not kids.
How polished do you require yourself to have a piece before you'll perform it publicly?
What about pro concertizing soloists - do they typically have a stage of development marked by highly imperfect performances? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 233 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: |
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I would say there are many levels of "imperfect".
Hitting the notes is one level. Having a crass sound or no style or a grossly exaggerated style are also levels. A lot of stuff on youtube (this would be amateurs I guess) can tick the box for hitting the notes but you wouldn't want to listen to them.
The first level I guess you can fix with practice but the other ones are more a reflection of the person's personality. Does anyone practice that? |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Solo performances should be polished enough that the soloist can be expected to communicate what the composer intended, and so that the audience can enjoy it.
This isn't about split/missed notes, either. Of course we don't want any missed notes, but that isn't the real measure of quality. It's musical communication.
Sarah Willis recently interviewed Tamás Velenczei, co-principal trumpet of the Berlin Philharmonic. He said something that grabbed my attention: he thought that American orchestras are so focused on perfection, meaning no missed notes, that they play it too safe and stifle musical expression. He thinks European orchestras are less risk-averse and can be encouraged to "go for it." Sometimes that means a few missed notes, but sometimes this produces really powerful musical performances. Mark Gould said something similar in one of his Brass Chats interviews: he thinks orchestral trumpeters today play at a much higher level of skill, but so blended and cautious that it can seem almost boring. (Not sure I agree completely--I've heard some great performances on internet radio recently, like BSO Bruckner 6. Wow!) _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 949
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:03 am Post subject: |
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I am an amateur. I want my solo performance to be at the level of the recorded professionals I listen to. Therefore, I never perform solo. |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1323 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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I have/do perform the occasional solo. I practice it to get it right, then practice it until I can't get it wrong. Then, and only then, would I perform it in public. _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I think perfection is greatly overrated. In my musical life I've always latched onto individuals who have bridged from just playing notes, to having a voice. This isn't a particularly subtle transition. Once a player can sing then they're likely to be able to perform a solo that will be well received, regardless of the lack of perfection.
I'd rather here an expressive solo than a technically perfect one that is lifeless. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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This is a very interesting discussion.
Let me start off by saying that I consider myself an advanced amateur, rehearsing and performing in unpaid community bands and orchestras, typically sitting first chair. I usually get one (modestly) paid Easter gig a year.
Yesterday morning I played an Easter gig. Interestingly, at the run-through a few nights earlier, the organist suggested I take a different approach to the way I was playing the music, with a very different interpretation.
So Sunday morning, with a focus on playing the way the organist suggested, I realized I wasn't playing as loud as I thought appropriate and found myself missing some notes. I was concerned I wasn't being heard and that the clams had ruined the performance.
It turns out it was quite the opposite. I got so many more compliments than I usually do. When I was leaving, the pastor relayed to me that he received so many compliments on my playing and that I was welcome to play any time at his church.
Since the church happened to be in my neighborhood, my wife attended and told me afterward that my playing was really beautiful. When I asked her if all of the missed notes detracted from my performance. She told me she didn't hear any missed notes.
So my point is that I experienced first-hand that a musical performance (even with several clams) trumps a note-perfect, less musical performance. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Depends on two things: who's the audience and what will you settle for.
Some audiences are very unconcerned with your profiency level. So, for them, the performance level on your part is minimal. They might even be grateful for it, regardless of what you do.
On the other hand, the audience just referred to is one thing, how you want to play is another, regardless of how low the bar is set by the listeners. What will you personally settle for?
If it's a professional venue, nothing but your best (or better) is called for. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gottfried Reiche Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I think perfection is greatly overrated... |
What amateurs say. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Gottfried Reiche wrote: | cheiden wrote: | I think perfection is greatly overrated... |
What amateurs say. |
Guilty as charged. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: |
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There's an expression that goes like this: "The value in art is in the imperfections." What this means is that it is the human element, the "flaws," the personal touch, which distinguishes great art and gives it great value.
A computer can reproduce a Rembrandt painting flawlessly, removing brushstrokes and other "flaws". However, the computer generated "perfect" "Rembrandt," although technically superior to the original, has no significant value while the "flawed" original Rembrandt is worth a fortune.
There are several ways to approach your performances. One way is to accept the fact that "perfect" performances are extremely rare. I saw an interview of Beverly Sills in which she said she thought she had only one perfect performance in her entire career.
Another way is to take the approach that there are no wrong notes. Here are some great quotes:
"There are no wrong notes in jazz, only notes in the wrong places." - Miles Davis
"There are no wrong notes,some are just more right than others." - Thelonius Monk
"It's not the note you play that's the wrong note - it's the note you play afterwards that makes it right or wrong." - Miles Davis
"There's no such thing as a wrong note." - Art Tatum
"Do not fear mistakes. There are none." - Miles Davis
"There are no wrong notes on the piano, just better choices." - Thelonius Monk
"There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions." - Bill Evans
"I played the wrong, wrong notes." - Thelonius Monk
Each person has their own perception of what, to them, is a credible performance. You do need to consider your audience. The standards/expectations for soloing in front of a critical ticket-paying audience with a major symphony orchestra are a lot higher than the standards/expectations for soloing with piano accompaniment in front of a group of non-critical elderly people in a retirement community who are there just for something to do.
Ultimately you have to please yourself to be satisfied. That's a very personal standard. As Ricky Nelson sang in "Garden Party," "You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself." Good advice. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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snichols Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Posts: 586 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I think a good rule of thumb is when you have enough command over the music that you don't have to worry as much about playing it "right" and you can focus more on making music.
Everyone has different standards for what they consider "perfection". A young amateur might consider playing all of the right notes to be enough, while a professional cares about tone, pitch, accuracy, phrasing, dynamics, expression, time, and so forth.
If your standards of "perfection" are super high, and you want to sound like Chris Martin, you might have to adjust your choice of music accordingly, even if it means playing "Three Blind Mice".
If your standards of "perfection" are low, (ie. hitting the right notes and not much else), then sure, a person can play difficult music that is probably over their ability. But it doesn't mean the audience will enjoy it. They want to hear you be musical. |
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: How perfected before you'll perform a piece in public? |
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Robert P wrote: | I see various "amateur" performances - i.e. not a paid, concertizing performance - of difficult solo literature where the soloist might have a reasonable handle on some parts but it's clearly a work in progress - split/missed notes etc. where it would be rare to hear them by top-tier soloists. I'm referring to adult-aged players, not kids.
How polished do you require yourself to have a piece before you'll perform it publicly?
What about pro concertizing soloists - do they typically have a stage of development marked by highly imperfect performances? |
You are probably thinking about giving a performance. You can be the judge and decide whether to perform or not. You can tell if it sounds good or not. Do it for your self-efficacy. Take the risk. You WILL have chipped notes. Have a friend listen to you play, well in advance, to identify intonation issues and musicality, tips, etc. Have a good accompanist at that rehearsal. Make it a good musician listener and ask for candid response. However, if you don't sound good, musical selection will lead you out eventually. You can invite persons who are not going to Pick away at every single chipped note and have no clue about musicality.
I pushed through and did a recital last year, and I'm glad I did. The hall was 100 degrees in the front, but I was well prepared for the heat, which is my nemesis Generally, I received good feedback, except one note on the flugel. I switched between way too many horns. Now I know I can do it again in the future, in my current condition. I will keep it simpler. And I will know where to improve. And I will ask for feedback in advance. If you don't do it, you will never know. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir |
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