Joined: 13 May 2014 Posts: 40 Location: western n.y.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: A few Pedal Tone questions
I've just started to do some pedal tone work and have frequented a few of the on line videos on the subject. I guess some swear by them and some at them!!! I have a few questions I can't seem to find answers to...can you "over-practice" ?.......can you keep using more top lip in the cup as you go lower or are you to keep the same playing embouchure you normally use?.... Can you add pedal tone practice to your regular routine or should you keep it separate?....should you practice every day or is that too much?....thanks
Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 836 Location: Brooklyn NY
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:59 am Post subject:
Hi aardvark:
It is certainly possible to overdo pedals, and just like any other aspect of practicing, practicing pedals inefficiently or with bad form or too loud or for too long can be harmful at worst or just a waste of time at the least.
Pedals should be practiced using an embouchure as close as possible to the embouchure you use in the notes above pedal range.
Pedals should be in balance with the rest of your practice regimen.
Daily practice of pedals for not more than 10 to 15 minutes is recommended within the context of my pedagogical approach (Claude Gordon).
I would be happy to help you. I do teach via skype if you can't make it "in person". _________________ For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet
There are tons of threads here on the TH discussing pedal tones.
Some people swear by them, some people say there is a waste of time, so,e even say they are detrimental.
There are pages and pages here if you search discussing all the ways to practice and incorporate pedals into playing and practice regiments.
Included are guys from the Claude Gordon school of playing, and Magio, Callet, Smiley, Stevens all discussing their opinions on how and why to use pedals.
Then there are pragmatic traditionalists that will explain all the reasons why pedals are a total waste of time and list very compelling arguments as to what their reasoning are in reference to pedals.
Hours and hours of reading is available on this very controversial subject right here...just do a search.
There are tons of threads here on the TH discussing pedal tones.
Some people swear by them, some people say there is a waste of time, so,e even say they are detrimental.
There are pages and pages here if you search discussing all the ways to practice and incorporate pedals into playing and practice regiments.
Included are guys from the Claude Gordon school of playing, and Magio, Callet, Smiley, Stevens all discussing their opinions on how and why to use pedals.
Then there are pragmatic traditionalists that will explain all the reasons why pedals are a total waste of time and list very compelling arguments as to what their reasoning are in reference to pedals.
Hours and hours of reading is available on this very controversial subject right here...just do a search.
Right on!
And hours reading about pedal tones are better spent on the horn, shedding.
The ability to do them wrong is too high.
The "double pedals" callet prescribes doesn't seem to create issues like "single pedals".
Yes, you can over practice them, and IMO beyond a minute or so, time on pedals is time better spent elsewhere. Including on the can.
He's got about 65% accuracy when he's using the pedals connecting through the real range of the trumpet. And in other vids when not using pedals he hits his targets infinity better.
So this is a vid showing the merits of playing in the pedal register?
Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 836 Location: Brooklyn NY
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:44 am Post subject:
Great video, K.O. S.! _________________ For Online Lessons via Live Video, email
me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet
here is another thank you for the KO video. i finally understand, well, half understand, the relationship between pedals and the upper register. i was not aware it was connected to open pedal C which i have been playing 2-3. now to play it open. apparently the deal is fishing for harmonics, finding harmonics where one least expects it, or something of that nature.
we may beat certain subjects to death but it happens that good info surfaces when going over old hat material.
My question has always been, if the first real pedal is a G why bother with the notes in between? Can't the G be used to connect the resonating notes just as easily?
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject:
My take is that getting the pedals done properly makes a pretty big difference. They can sound right when doing them wrong, which I did for a while. Didn't help my upper register in the least then.
My question has always been, if the first real pedal is a G why bother with the notes in between? Can't the G be used to connect the resonating notes just as easily?
The (open) pedal resonance actually centers closer to A. Not G. But, yes, it is acceptable to play the pedal where the resonance peaks when beginning these notes as an exercise. After that, to raise the pitch, is an exercise in playing it above it's peak. Which is possible because it is a bit "broad" compared to other notes.
Playing a pedal C on the C pitch is simply a matter of having the embouchure skill to raise it up.
He's got about 65% accuracy when he's using the pedals connecting through the real range of the trumpet. And in other vids when not using pedals he hits his targets infinity better.
You infer that due to a demonstration that is not of the same standard as the rest of his videos the merit of exploring this is obviously of little value to his playing. You do not consider that the quality of the rest of his videos might be due to the work he has done on pedal tones. It is quite possible that his exploration of this aspect opened a door that allows him to play in the normal and upper registers with greater ease and control. It is a common experience that playing in the extreme registers is more difficult than the registers in between them. If this is a reality then it would be advantageous to separate these extremes as far apart as possible so that the register in between them is expanded. In other words working on controlling and expanding our extreme upper and lower register would make our usable register be perceived as being easier and possibly expand it in one or both directions.
So this is a vid showing the merits of playing in the pedal register?
My take is that he uses pedals to help discover and train his embouchure to:
A. Move throughout registers.
B. Develop a set that helps him conceptualize or feel the octaves as being closer together.
C. Set his chops so that he can navigate through the range of the horn without making (large) embouchure changes.
For him, training the embouchure for these purposes is the benefit or merit of working on pedals.
He also describes that finding the correct way to play the pedals also helps line up the overtones. The Pedals act as the starting point for the overtone series so it is logical to know where they are, how they feel and how to properly produce them. The concept is that playing pedals is of benefit to playing the rest of the instrument and understanding its tonal structure.
This video may not “show” the merits of playing in the pedal register but it certainly does explain the possible merits. It is information that I felt the OP was seeking. Is there merit in exploring this aspect of playing? It may not open new doors but it certainly is worth the free admission to see if it does.
He's got about 65% accuracy when he's using the pedals connecting through the real range of the trumpet. And in other vids when not using pedals he hits his targets infinity better.
You infer that due to a demonstration that is not of the same standard as the rest of his videos the merit of exploring this is obviously of little value to his playing. You do not consider that the quality of the rest of his videos might be due to the work he has done on pedal tones. It is quite possible that his exploration of this aspect opened a door that allows him to play in the normal and upper registers with greater ease and control. It is a common experience that playing in the extreme registers is more difficult than the registers in between them. If this is a reality then it would be advantageous to separate these extremes as far apart as possible so that the register in between them is expanded. In other words working on controlling and expanding our extreme upper and lower register would make our usable register be perceived as being easier and possibly expand it in one or both directions.
So this is a vid showing the merits of playing in the pedal register?
My take is that he uses pedals to help discover and train his embouchure to:
A. Move throughout registers.
B. Develop a set that helps him conceptualize or feel the octaves as being closer together.
C. Set his chops so that he can navigate through the range of the horn without making (large) embouchure changes.
For him, training the embouchure for these purposes is the benefit or merit of working on pedals.
He also describes that finding the correct way to play the pedals also helps line up the overtones. The Pedals act as the starting point for the overtone series so it is logical to know where they are, how they feel and how to properly produce them. The concept is that playing pedals is of benefit to playing the rest of the instrument and understanding its tonal structure.
This video may not “show” the merits of playing in the pedal register but it certainly does explain the possible merits. It is information that I felt the OP was seeking. Is there merit in exploring this aspect of playing? It may not open new doors but it certainly is worth the free admission to see if it does.
Best, Jon
So he sounds not as good while using the pedal register, but he sounds better elsewhere while not using the pedal register, because of the work he's put in using pedal register.
When working on double tonguing, I will isolate the k syllable and make sure it speaks just like the t syllable. Isolating the syllables this way rarely sounds as good and consistent as simply double tonguing, but it sure makes my double tongue sound better in the long run.
Just because something isn't very flattering in the practice room doesn't mean it won't improve our results in performance. There are valid criticisms of pedal tone practice, but the obvious observation that playing passages that cover a more extreme range (by adding an octave on the bottom) is more difficult isn't a thoughtful or reasonable criticism.
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject:
yeah. trumpet practice is about hearing, blowing, finding and who knows what. it isn't an exercise in crisp logic. it is about getting nearly your entire being lined up correctly and becomes more feel than thought. right brain as they say.
there are different schools of trumpet blowing. you may not like what another group is into, and you don't have to follow their methods, but it works for them and they produce good players.
how you could take something as fun as pedals and turn it into muck is beyond me. work on connecting with the inner child rather than creating unfair criticism. the pedal register is fun, and rewarding, and baffling, and is pure magic. you can't get this playing clarinet and guitar and keyboard. it is a hard road and all that but we are gifted with the instrument.
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: A few Pedal Tone questions
aardvark wrote:
I've just started to do some pedal tone work and have frequented a few of the on line videos on the subject. I guess some swear by them and some at them!!! I have a few questions I can't seem to find answers to...can you "over-practice" ?.......can you keep using more top lip in the cup as you go lower or are you to keep the same playing embouchure you normally use?.... Can you add pedal tone practice to your regular routine or should you keep it separate?....should you practice every day or is that too much?....thanks
The pedal tones are designed to keep you flexible and enhance your sound. Yes, you can over practice, to the point where you are airing your notes. But you need to do them. If you find it is screwing you up to play them every day, do them every other day. Or shorten your pedal tone exercises and do them every day. Do them early morning, before the high and technical drills. Also before your repertoire practice. There is some nasty repertoire out there, and those pedal tones have a lot of potential for saving your chops if optimized to you. The fine balance you find is when you work with a professional for a few years. But don't just do the way the teacher tells you, if it is not working, tell your teacher it is not working, change it to where it is working or find another teacher.
It's not so much where the embouchure is, but what it sounds like. IF you get a nice fat sound in the pedal tones. You probably open the lips ever so slightly and drop the jaw a little, but it's more about the sound so ignore the technical aspect. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject:
Benge.nut wrote:
So he sounds not as good while using the pedal register, but he sounds better elsewhere while not using the pedal register, because of the work he's put in using pedal register.
Exactly! This is the most concise statement I have seen to date that explains the nature of pedals and why to practice them.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3380 Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject:
Jerry Callet's instruction in pedal tones has been extremely helpful for me. I spent several years with the Claude Gordon approach and even more with Don Reinhardt, who strongly discouraged Gordon-type pedals. Regrettably, both systems were detrimental for me. But Jerry Callet's very different approach helped me immensely. And for the first time, I actually understood the why-and-where of pedals.
With Jerry Callet's approach:
1. Artificial pedals, ala lip bends, are prohibited.
2. In the true pedal register, the lower lip is put into a sort of 1/2 Maggio position. This develops the most resonant, powerful trumpet sound possible - very easily recognized by the ears after a brief demonstration.
3. Once a powerful, resonant sound is established in the true pedal range then the lips grip the tongue and the pitch ascends into normal range (or higher). This gripping motion, if done correctly, ensures the most powerful, secure, stable, and centered sound. When precisely done this powerful and focused sound moves up in range surprisingly quickly (in weeks, perhaps months - definitely not years).
4. A big, powerful, intune, unpinched sound that promptly moves up in range verifies that the approach is on track. If this isn't happening then the teacher need only observe two things to determine the problem: it's either a lack of true resonance in the pedals, or it's a mistake in the lip-to-tongue grip.
5. Over-practicing pedal tones is possible in the first 3-5 days because upper lip on-the-red tissue can get a bit over sensitized/tender due to the fact it has never fully vibrated/resonated before. Apart from that precaution, pedal tones definitely cannot be overdone when properly following the Callet procedure.
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