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rusco
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Joined: 26 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: Aging raw brass |
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Hello all!
I recently bought a new horn in raw brass and while the brass shine is staring to fade (due to fingerprints and whatnot) is there a way to "speed up" the aging process to get that nice Patina look?
I read a few things on the web.... Ammonia vapors, salt water mixes, vinegar.... do these work and/or are there other methods.
Peace! |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Aging raw brass |
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| rusco wrote: | Hello all!
I recently bought a new horn in raw brass and while the brass shine is staring to fade (due to fingerprints and whatnot) is there a way to "speed up" the aging process to get that nice Patina look?
I read a few things on the web.... Ammonia vapors, salt water mixes, vinegar.... do these work and/or are there other methods.
Peace! |
I've been studying these same sort of things. What I intend to do is to buy some brass and copper tubing from a hardware or hobby store and test/practice various patina finishes until I find what I want and can manage to get the results I want reliably.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trickg
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Bury it in the backyard for a few weeks - that's what drummers do to age their cymbals.  (I'm actually not kidding about that.)
Google is your friend - there are all kinds of vids on YouTube about how to put a patina finish on brass.
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Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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rusco
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | Bury it in the backyard for a few weeks - that's what drummers do to age their cymbals. (I'm actually not kidding about that.) |
my drummer friend said the same thing!!!   |
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rusco
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Joined: 26 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Aging raw brass |
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[/quote]
What I intend to do is to buy some brass and copper tubing from a hardware or hobby store and test/practice various patina finishes until I find what I want and can manage to get the results I want reliably.[/quote]
please let me know your results. i'm going to try a vinegar/salt mix in the bath tub. |
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Benge.nut
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Joined: 18 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: |
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I just don't understand this. Unfinished brass and the patina folks speak of is from oxidation.
The act of oxidation is literally by definition a corrosion. Rust for instance is a form of oxidation. You're breaking down the components of the alloy. Degrading the material and constantly changing it.
This is why brass instruments have a protective finish like lacquer, or silver plate.
I get it, the patina "looks cool" but it is also shortening the life of the instrument and it is in a constant state of flux and change while unprotected.
Just seems counterproductive and self destructive to me. |
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | I just don't understand this. Unfinished brass and the patina folks speak of is from oxidation.
The act of oxidation is literally by definition a corrosion. Rust for instance is a form of oxidation. You're breaking down the components of the alloy. Degrading the material and constantly changing it. |
False. The patina is addition to the metal, not detraction from. Per Charlie Melk. (Brass turning green as in a ship's bell in salt air is a different matter)
| Benge.nut wrote: |
This is why brass instruments have a protective finish like lacquer, or silver plate. |
Finishes were introduced to keep new instruments on store walls shiny, and sellable.
I don't think any amount of experimentation with accelerating the patina process will change the fact that metal adopts it's own inherent patina. Some are gorgeous and even, some are blotchy and don't look so good. I have a horn like that I would love to be able to even out. Am considering having it nickel plated. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Benge.nut wrote: | I just don't understand this. Unfinished brass and the patina folks speak of is from oxidation.
The act of oxidation is literally by definition a corrosion. Rust for instance is a form of oxidation. You're breaking down the components of the alloy. Degrading the material and constantly changing it. |
False. The patina is addition to the metal, not detraction from. Per Charlie Melk. (Brass turning green as in a ship's bell in salt air is a different matter)
| Benge.nut wrote: |
This is why brass instruments have a protective finish like lacquer, or silver plate. |
Finishes were introduced to keep new instruments on store walls shiny, and sellable.
I don't think any amount of experimentation with accelerating the patina process will change the fact that metal adopts it's own inherent patina. Some are gorgeous and even, some are blotchy and don't look so good. I have a horn like that I would love to be able to even out. Am considering having it nickel plated. |
Ok, science has been wrong all these years. As has every bit of reading on the internet about oxidation and corrosion.
And protective finishes on brass are solely done to make instruments in stores look shiny, and the millions of other brass products that use finishes were just following suit of what music stores do I guess?
Seems legit.
Get out your chemicals, vinegar, salt, steel wool, buffing tools and have at it!!
It's a shame especially when somebody does this to a great vintage instrument and just shortens its life. But hey if your horn looks like Wynton's maybe you'll play like him too!!!
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derekthor
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Liver of sulphur. Just make sure to degrease first with something powerful. |
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TrptSTP
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: |
Ok, science has been wrong all these years. As has every bit of reading on the internet about oxidation and corrosion.
And protective finishes on brass are solely done to make instruments in stores look shiny, and the millions of other brass products that use finishes were just following suit of what music stores do I guess?
Seems legit.
Get out your chemicals, vinegar, salt, steel wool, buffing tools and have at it!!
It's a shame especially when somebody does this to a great vintage instrument and just shortens its life. But hey if your horn looks like Wynton's maybe you'll play like him too!!!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnish
http://www.tech-faq.com/what-causes-copper-to-turn-green.html
https://www.teachervision.com/chemistry/which-metal-corrodes-fastest
It's the surface layer only for the copper alloys in question. Lacquer is a temporary finish to keep the brass from tarnishing. |
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falado
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Why not just use it and let the patina happen naturally. I had my raw brass Bach 72 MLV cleaned and and PVA at Osmun last summer. I got it back nice and shined after the chemical bath. Within a couple months it had a nice patina starting. The trick is to keep the water spots off. I'd post a picture, but can't seem to figure that out. Maybe I'll put it in the market place. I've had it on Craig's List, but I get too many frauds.
Dave
[/img]
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Last edited by falado on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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falado
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Hi again, I posted my Bach MLV in the Marketplace. That patina is after a couple months of constant use. It started looking as you see it only after a couple months. So, why bother trying to speed up the process, you can get it naturally by playing it and leaving on the stand instead of in the case. Artificially enducing a patina may give you a result you don't want. I also had an old Benge 3 that had about 70% of the lacquer gone. I hit it with some aircraft remover, used it in my classroom and a nice patina began happening within a month. Just use it and this is just some thought on the mater.
Dave
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FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7009
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | I just don't understand this. Unfinished brass and the patina folks speak of is from oxidation.
The act of oxidation is literally by definition a corrosion. Rust for instance is a form of oxidation. You're breaking down the components of the alloy. Degrading the material and constantly changing it.
This is why brass instruments have a protective finish like lacquer, or silver plate.
I get it, the patina "looks cool" but it is also shortening the life of the instrument and it is in a constant state of flux and change while unprotected.
Just seems counterproductive and self destructive to me. |
It's because you can get colors like this:
and this:
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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21trumpet
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Just do what I did. Brushed finishes.
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bowiefighter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I inadvertently got a wonderful and even patina on the unlacquered parts of my Olds Ambassador by wiping it down with a microfiber cloth after every use. My intent was simply to keep fingerprints and blotchy waterspots from forming. The patina that formed took several months but looks great.
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr Benge: patina is not green, nor is it corrosion. Learn the difference, or not; your call. |
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trickg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Mr Benge: patina is not green, nor is it corrosion. Learn the difference, or not; your call. |
At least have the common decency to Google the definition before blasting out with an incorrect statement like the one above.
Patina:
1.
a film or incrustation, usually green, produced by oxidationon the surface of old bronze and often esteemed as being of ornamental value.
Oxidize:
2.
to cover with a coating of oxide or rust.
Definition of rust
1
a : the reddish brittle coating formed on iron especially when chemically attacked by moist air and composed essentially of hydrated ferric oxide
b : a comparable coating produced on a metal other than iron by corrosion
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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rufflicks
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I wonder, when it comes time, if Dr. Valve could still do the valve job on that???
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Benge.nut
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Mr Benge: patina is not green, nor is it corrosion. Learn the difference, or not; your call. |
Ok, it's your horn, not mine. You want to devalue your horn and shorten its life, have at it!! And it will make you play like Wynton!!
Seriously, I just don't care, but I've just wondered why folks want to remove the protective finish (wonder why they call it protective 🤔) to make it look "prettier". It's none of my business. If you think it sounds better or performs better, I think there is an argument there I guess, but just for esthetics...it's in the eye of the beholder...and on your hands, and cleaning materials. |
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