Sub-$1000 Cornet Suggestions? Carolbrass/JP/Brasspire?

[ajwan]

First time poster/emailer (through trumpetherald), but long time reader! Finally got around to registering in TH.

I currently have only a Carolbrass CCR-7775-YSS-Eb-S as my main horn. I'd like to get something keyed lower to facilitate practicing with my beginner 9-year old daughter (who uses a rather beat-up Besson 1020). Yes, this was a painful decision to make as the fingerings are different as I'm used to the Eb. But as they say, it's for the children! As a result I may part with my Eb.

Before I get to the shortlist I did get a chance to compare my Eb my kid's horn. Here's what I found (even if I"m comparing apples to oranges):

1) the CB Eb cornet has a wonderfully warm and resonant tone throughout the range;
2) surprising to me, the CB Eb cornet's low end continued to be richer, warmer, and and more resonant compared to the Besson, even though the Eb is a soprano (used the same stock 7C mouthpiece on both);
3) the valves on the CB Eb were silky and buttery smooth;
4) the Besson had a decent sound, but was "stuffy"; like as though you were trying to sing while having a cold;
5) the Besson valves were noisy and had a tendency to stick during slur phrases (no matter how many times I cleaned and oiled);
6) the CB Eb seemed to blow freer while the Besson continued to blow "stuffy".

For my purposes, I'm mainly playing for church services. Sometimes I'll be playing simple solo parts - in these situations on my Eb, my Dennis Wick S works great (may consider a deeper mouthpiece soon). On other times I'll be playing alone alongside an organ and choir - in these situations, I use a Bach 7DW which helps me cut through the choir/organ. Given these requirements, I suppose I'm looking for a cornet that is versatile enough to have this mix of solo/intimacy, and enough projection to cut through an organ/choir.

My shortlist is the following:
1) John Packer JP271SW
2) Carolbrass CCR-3880-GSS-SGG
3) Brasspire BPCT-B4S

I've got a bad case of analysis/paralysis in deciding between the three. The Carolbrass and Brasspire are roughly the same pricepoint (~$1000 give or take) while the JP comes in at less. There are plenty of excellent reviews on the Carolbrass and Brasspire so I won't mention them too much here (although I'll note the JP and Brasspire comes with 1st and 3rd slide triggers while the Carolbrass doesn't; not a big deal, but worth noting).

The Brasspire is not very well known (but I've read only excellent reviews for horns made by this Japanese company), but is a 0.462" bore, red brass leadpipe, two-piece red brass bell, nickel-silver tuning slide, and a nickel-silver/yellow brass valve casing. The engineer (Kei Aruga) considers the Brasspire sound to be heavier and darker than a Besson 928 Sovereign. I suspect it would play a lot like the Carolbrass CCR-6882T-RSS-L. The engineer also mentioned that the 3880 (to him) is too trumpet-like in sound; he purposely designed the Brasspire cornet's sound to be warmer and not so bright.

There's no way for me to play-test these models as no-one locally (Burnaby, BC, Canada) carries stock of either. But I've narrowed my choices to the Carol and Brasspire given their excellent value price-points (I'm not interested in getting a high-end Yamaha or Besson etc).

Days and nights spent thinking about this and causing me to lose sleep!

Some feedback and guidance.

Cheers,
Andrew

[ajwan]

BTW, I got some feedback from nordlandstrompet. But wanted to get some other opinions. Cheers!

[Dale Proctor]

Have you considered a Yamaha 2330 (assuming there's a nearby dealer)? About a year ago I played a Yamaha 2330 and it was a very nice, inexpensive cornet. I used own an older one years ago and hated it, though - it was nothing like the newer one I tried. No triggers, though...
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[ajwan]

Definitely something to consider (the Yamaha 2330). The reason I was considering the Carolbrass and Brasspire is that I can get them at a substantial discount off their listed prices (~20% savings).

[Dale Proctor]

Well, if they seem to be well-made and have good reviews, no harm in trying them out. A trial in a small group setting would be best if you could arrange it. I've played instruments in a room by myself that seemed fine, but when played with a group, numerous shortcomings (ease of play, intonation, projection, etc.) became evident. The proof's in the playing.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[kehaulani]

ajwan, I have a Packer, although I do not know the model - it's across town at mom's - and I suspect it might be a little more "advanced" than the model JP271SW, but nevertheless, it's a very good horn. I bought it to blend in a British Brass Band setting. I found the grip on the left hand awkward, though. Makes working the third-valve ring awkward; might be OK for you, though.

But you should also, if money's a factor, look into used. I just bought a Conn 80-A on Craigslist, reconditioned, for $250.00 and it's superb. Different use, but just saying. Good luck.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[ajwan]

[ajwan]

[VetPsychWars]

This cornet on eBay is arguably the best cornet ever produced in the US during the golden age.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1934-Buescher-Aristocrat-Cornet-/232304395975?hash=item36166bc6c7:g:eNcAAOSw32lYxgGR

It isn't perfect, but for the price, it's worth a look.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[kehaulani]

[etc-etc]

I would get the 3880 from Thomann.de (their prices with shipping included are much lower than those of other retailers). The one below, delivered, is $700 CAD plus 12% GST+PST = $784 CAD.

https://www.thomann.de/intl/carol_brass_ccr_3880_gss_bb_l.htm?ref=search_rslt_carol+brass+cornet_340222_8

The sound on 3880 is very much mouthpiece-dependent. Put in a Wick 3 and it will be not at all similar to a trumpet.

[1jazzyalex]

Given you have a budget of $1000, there are two King Silversonic cornets I know of in my area. One's on Craig's List, and one's at Hornucopia. Actually, I know of a third, at Starving Musician. They're all $800.
_________________
Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A

[kehaulani]

ajwan - I PMd you twice but it seemed not to "take". Funny software. Let me know please through THIS THREAD (not PM) whether or not you received the second PM. Thanks.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[ajwan]

[Rod Haney]

I have a truly amazing cornet you should think about and if you also like a Bb trumpet you will be pleased with one. I have a Conn Vocabel 48a model short cornet in mint shape. This horn with a cornet shank and rim/cup combo is super sweet but has huge volume and l the cut you will ever want. This horn with a trumpet lead cup on a corner shank will peel paint and bring down walls. This is not a small horn. Either in weight or bore and you must play efficiently or have monster chops and like big bore horns. You will be heard and noticed on the vocabell. Ones in great shape are really hard to find and are fairly rare and those who know about them and like them don't cut them loose. Mine is on a gallery pic at greensbuffing.com if you wish to see a beautiful Art Deco horn that plays better than it looks ( till u run out of air) - I can't play it long but I sound real nice as long as I can haha.
You can probably find a nice one (not like mine but nice) for under 800$ or less and if you got big horn chops or control your horn better than me, I don't think you can find a sweeter sounding or powerful cornet unless you find an old King master cornet. This is 1 case where I really beleive they don't make them like they used to (as well).
Rod

[Crazy Finn]

There should be good choices for used Bb cornets for under a grand - even pro models.

I got my Bach 184L for less than a grand.
I got my Getzen Capri cornet for far less than a grand (nice horn, maybe technically not a pro model, but plays well).

I'd go on, but it's be embarrassing how many horns I have bought.

Good used pro model cornets, either still produced or vintage from yester-year, no problem for less than a grand.

Are you set on short model? Just wondering.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[kehaulani]

[ajwan]

Wow, these are some really great replies here! Thanks for the discussion. Yes, I was considering only short-model cornets in a silver plate. Having considered my options, I've placed an order for the JP271SW (as my daughter will eventually be a factor), and the Brasspire Unicorn BPCT-B4S.

The Brasspire is a bit of an enigma. I casually inquired to them on their website whether or not cornets would be produced. I was surprised to get a reply from their wind instrument manager and chief engineer/designer Kei Aruga, along with a spec sheet for a newly designed cornet which has only started its production run. I realize I'm taking a chance on this one. But I've only read good reviews from Brasspire products and I like that a rapport was established with their engineer/designer who was very accessible and responsive via email. Also, I'm a bit partial to the smaller outfits who are trying to establish a name for themselves (hence an inherent value perhaps?).

According to Kei, there are 3 brands: Brasspire(Custom. Order made), Brasspire Unicorn(Pro), and J.Michael(Student). Brasspire custom is Finished in the Japanese workshop at Nagoya while Unicorn and J.Michael, are produced in their Chinese factory. Kei mentioned that the Unicorn horns all assembled by only his students; I don't doubt the quality of their work as he personally inspects the Chinese factory on a monthly basis.

During my interaction with Kei, he mentioned that the Carols and Yamahas (and I suspect he's also referring to most of the more recent cornet brands/makes) are generally tending/trending to have a trumpet-like sound. Of course mouthpieces play a role here; but that was a general comment he made (I'm pretty sure if I needed a "cutting" sound, my Bach 7DW should fit the bill). The BPCT-B4S he feels has a darker/warmer sound than a recent Besson Sovereign 928; and similar to an older-model sovereign (if that means anything). His rationale was that he wanted to make a totally different sound than from a trumpet; a warmer and "not-much bright cornet sound". It was a very enlightening discussion to have with a designer/engineer, which pretty much sealed the deal for me.

If you're interested in a spec sheet, please PM me with your email and I'll be happy to send.

Cheers!

[GordonH]

The Yamaha 2330 is a good cornet. I had one for a few years when I was mainly playing trumpet. It feels very open due to the lack of the bend before the third valve and the bore size. It has a mellow tone but it lacks the resistance that produces the classic British sound - if that is what you are looking for.

The JP271SW is a good cornet BUT I know someone whop just switched to a Besson 1000 from that and it noticeably improved his tone. The Besson is probably not as well made though.

I think it is all about sound concept and how you get there in a supported way rather than having to fight the instrument and mouthpiece combination.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Bob Stevenson]

If you are serious about becoming a cornet player with hopes for tone, style and flexibility then the Besson 1000 series offers the best (perhaps only) low cost choice......