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Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader


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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

Hi

With reference to this thread, I have been discussing this topic with someone recently:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143425

In my opinion, the brass band cornet sound, and in fact the sound of brass bands in general, has changed over time, becoming bigger and broader, with a larger dynamic range, especially towards the louder dynamic end.

Considering that the Sovereign has been pretty much the standard brass band cornet for years, I am interested in how the evolution of the Sovereign relates to the change in brass band cornet sound.

What I mean, is that I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial. It has a small sweet sound, and I like it very much for traditional cornet solos, but I don't find that it works very well in a modern British-style brass band. It is ok at quieter dynamics, but gets completely buried in the section at louder dynamics, and I have found that you have the choice of either working far too hard or not hearing yourself, hence why I consider my Yamaha Xeno to be a much better modern brass band cornet.

Looking at the evolution of the Sovereign in GordonH's very informative blog, which I posted a link to below, the 0.466" bore size of the 1974-1984 Boosey and Hawkes 921 Sovereign (popular large bore "round stamp" model) is the same as the 1984 to present day 928 Sovereign.

http://www.ecalpemos.org/2012/08/my-definitive-guide-to-sovereign-cornet.html

I fully appreciate that my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is similar to the medium bore 920 Sovereign rather than the large bore 921 Sovereign. Regarding the more popular large bore 921 Sovereign, I haven't seen many in the flesh, and the only one I have played, was one for sale used when I bought my first new 928 Sovereign in the mid 1990s. This one was in a poor state of repair and didn't play very well.

Therefore, to those who have played both the 921 Sovereign and 928 Sovereign, what please is the difference in sound between the two? Does the 928 Sovereign have a bigger broader sound? If not, what please do you consider to be the reason for the bigger broader modern brass band sound, as presumably if it did not coincide with the introduction of the 928 Sovereign, since the Sovereign remains largely unchanged, it cannot be owing to anything to do with the cornets themselves? Or did the change occur prior to the introduction of the 921 Sovereign, when the smaller bored Boosey and Hawkes Imperial was still popular? I however have a feeling that the original Besson International was a popular brass band cornet before the 921 Sovereign, and that possibly this was a large bore cornet.

Bob Stephenson, GordonH and other brass banders, I'd really appreciate your views

Playing in only amateur brass bands (the first eighteen years in a band that played a matched set of Bach 184MLs with Bach C cup mouthpieces) since 1994, I don't really know personally.

Many Thanks

Take Care

Lou
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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SirBuzzALot
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lau,

I would say a number of factors may contribute,

1) The move to more large bore instruments since the 70's onwards
2) The move towards larger mouthpieces (denis wick range from 70's +)
3) Older instrumnets being pensioned off and more consistancy with choices in bands.

I think this leads to the sections in a brass band being able to blend together more and possibly more of a rich sound. This of course varies depending on the standard of the band (contesting / non contesting / Championship /4th section etc) Also the desire of the MD.....
I band near me requested that all back row players use a wick 2 (no letter) otherwise they would not be able to play in the competition!! They all did and just had to get used to them.

Like you im only an amateur player. Here i am playing a duet in my non contesting band with a Sop (who plays in the NYBBGB). The band all play on a right mix of mouthpieces so i would not say that we sound particularly broad or have a huge dynamic range compared to top band in the country. This is the only recording of me anywhere so dont expect it to sound pro.

Link


Al
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirBuzzALot wrote:
I band near me requested that all back row players use a wick 2 (no letter) otherwise they would not be able to play in the competition!! They all did and just had to get used to them.

What?!
Speaking as a conductor, it is the aural results that are important not the equipment. That should be left up to the player in whom you should give discretion, (not to mention trust and respect).
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirBuzzALot wrote:
Lau,

Hi Al

I would say a number of factors may contribute,

1) The move to more large bore instruments since the 70's onwards
2) The move towards larger mouthpieces (denis wick range from 70's +)
3) Older instrumnets being pensioned off and more consistancy with choices in bands.

I think this leads to the sections in a brass band being able to blend together more and possibly more of a rich sound. This of course varies depending on the standard of the band (contesting / non contesting / Championship /4th section etc) Also the desire of the MD.....

Thank you very much.

I band near me requested that all back row players use a wick 2 (no letter) otherwise they would not be able to play in the competition!! They all did and just had to get used to them.

I'm surprised at this.

Like you im only an amateur player. Here i am playing a duet in my non contesting band with a Sop (who plays in the NYBBGB). The band all play on a right mix of mouthpieces so i would not say that we sound particularly broad or have a huge dynamic range compared to top band in the country. This is the only recording of me anywhere so dont expect it to sound pro.

Link


Thank you very much for sharing. It sounds very good, and the band seem to be of a pretty reasonable standard.

Al

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Lou!......VERY interesting question(s)

I don't think there is one answer so much as a historical progression of bands, and more importantly, BB music itself...... My observations are possibly a bit 'jumbled' and only presented here as they come to (my) mind!

In the last 50+ years (the years of my assciation wih brass bands as both man and boy) bands have changed completely from the basically Victorian ensemble that still existed after WWII. Of the 8 BB instruments only the tenor horn is the same and would be instantly recognised by a Victorian player. All the others have undergone substantial change to meet changng modern demands on both bands and the players....however, it's the cornet that you are asking about so lets start there;

For those who don't realise it the Victorian cornet was a smaller instrument that was initially an orchestral and military instrument...the trumpet was quite a different thing and, although archaic, was without valves and only used for high heraldic passages as an addition to orchestral and other ensembles such as it's use by the State Trumpeters at Royal events and ceremonies.

The cornet was a 'new' instrument enabled by the invention of the valve and replaced the 'cornette,' which was a member of the serpent family being a sort or recorder with cup mouthpiece, and the 'keyed bugle' which was a military instrument used by, for example, the Guards Bands in London who had some virtuoso key bugle players. Because the cornette was used in various keys, mainly Bb, C & A the new 'cornet' was thus equipped with different shanks to enable a similar use. These shanks were plain tubes with no taper and contributed to the sweet 'small' tone of the cornet.

When brass bands were first formed as working class musical ensembles they were essentially confined to playing hymns and orchestral transcriptions with a few marches added for light relief. The cornet, with it's shanks, was an obvious choice to play the violin parts in transcriptions and the cornette parts in the hymns and marches.

Between the world wars the valve trumpet rose to prominance, notably in America where jazz gave it new and exciting possibilities, although as we know, many 'jazzers' were using the cornet. In addition the emergence of the great American big bands and film music also changed the musical landscape in favour of the trumpet sound and style.

So, after WWII UK brass bands were forced to change by rapid developments in the repertoire and a strong contesting ethos which demanded technical progression and increased virtuosity.......the old instruments, especially the Victorian 'peashooter' cornet were severly found lacking! UK makers were also threatened by new brass instruments from America including the 'long cornet' or 'mezzo trumpet' (as Besson prefered them to be called) The peashooter could not give the volume of sound needed and was pretty much limited to the one type of sweet, Victorian sound. The shanks had by now become obsolete as the cornet had passed out of orchestras in favour of the valve trumpet ( which was usually equipped for both Bb & A, but no longer C)

The Besson Co.(the 'real' one not B&H) rose to the new challenges with some innovative R&D. Aware that American makers (and the Sally Army factory at Hemel Hempstead) were removing the shanks and fitting properly tapered leadpipes theye used this feature to change the cornet design and begin the transition into the larger bore, fully flexible instrument we know today...firstly with some research models used by the best soloists (such as the young Maurice Murphy) and then into the '10-10' which in turn became the 'International' which it was hoped would challenge American instrument both in the UK and abroad.

Once B&H (who had aquired Besson after wwII) saw what Besson had achieved they killed Besson and eventually took this business for themsel ves by the introduction of the 'round stamp' Sovereign.....there was a major upset in the band world at the loss of Besson and the 'Int' along with new Euphonium models etc.

Partly to satisfy serious unhappiness among bands B&H redesigned the Sov. by means of scientific research and design to make the 928.......several experimental prototypes were played by blindfolded players and the best one (no. '928') placed into production.

In actual fact the 928 does not play very different to the 'round stamp' especially in the low register where the round stamp has a more positive voice......just my view!
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ajwan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very interesting discussion!

In another thread (http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1498660#1498660) I bring up the 1978 London Wind Orchestra recording of Folk Song Suite - Seventeen Come Sunday, conducted by Denis Wick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KARQn0p2us4

Having James Watson as the leading cornetist and Denis Wick as the conductor really seems to give this particular recording some serious cred.

(As I have the CD, a closer look at the CD label made me realize after all these years that the Denis Wick who conducted the London Wind Orchestra during the recording back in 1978 appears to be the same Denis Wick of the company that makes some of our favourite mouthpieces. I have much to learn it seems. )

As Louise mentioned in her recent post (and during a PM with me):

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143439

James may have used a BH Imperial (unknown for sure) at the time (1978) which may have possessed a smaller/sweeter sound. However, James's solo cornet parts clearly cut through the wind orchestra, despite the intensity of the passage (especially in the 3rd movement; not available on youtube). So perhaps James's style and Denis's interpretation is a one-off? I do realize some do consider James's intonation as thin and too trumpet-like. But to me it makes the cornet's contra-melodies all the more distinct in the recording.

I've since listened to more of James's recordings on youtube and you can hear a similar signature.
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.........Interesting because the popular brass band 'understanding' a the time of his conducting top bands was that James was a 'pro orchestral trumpet player'...and VERY few top players can play as well on both instruments withou some duplication of style...aprt from Maurice Murphy who had that wonderful distinctive sound on both!

.........it is entirely possible that he used a trumpet on the recording of the London Wind Orch.........whhich is a largely forgotten ensemble now but was lead by Dennis Wick, pro trumbonist, using mainly players from the Guards Brigade bands in London. I don't think Wick was a Guards player as he mainly did West End show playing....
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

With reference to this thread, I have been discussing this topic with someone recently:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143425

In my opinion, the brass band cornet sound, and in fact the sound of brass bands in general, has changed over time, becoming bigger and broader, with a larger dynamic range, especially towards the louder dynamic end.

Considering that the Sovereign has been pretty much the standard brass band cornet for years, I am interested in how the evolution of the Sovereign relates to the change in brass band cornet sound.

What I mean, is that I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial. It has a small sweet sound, and I like it very much for traditional cornet solos, but I don't find that it works very well in a modern British-style brass band. It is ok at quieter dynamics, but gets completely buried in the section at louder dynamics, and I have found that you have the choice of either working far too hard or not hearing yourself, hence why I consider my Yamaha Xeno to be a much better modern brass band cornet.

Looking at the evolution of the Sovereign in GordonH's very informative blog, which I posted a link to below, the 0.466" bore size of the 1974-1984 Boosey and Hawkes 921 Sovereign (popular large bore "round stamp" model) is the same as the 1984 to present day 928 Sovereign.

http://www.ecalpemos.org/2012/08/my-definitive-guide-to-sovereign-cornet.html

I fully appreciate that my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is similar to the medium bore 920 Sovereign rather than the large bore 921 Sovereign. Regarding the more popular large bore 921 Sovereign, I haven't seen many in the flesh, and the only one I have played, was one for sale used when I bought my first new 928 Sovereign in the mid 1990s. This one was in a poor state of repair and didn't play very well.

Therefore, to those who have played both the 921 Sovereign and 928 Sovereign, what please is the difference in sound between the two? Does the 928 Sovereign have a bigger broader sound? If not, what please do you consider to be the reason for the bigger broader modern brass band sound, as presumably if it did not coincide with the introduction of the 928 Sovereign, since the Sovereign remains largely unchanged, it cannot be owing to anything to do with the cornets themselves? Or did the change occur prior to the introduction of the 921 Sovereign, when the smaller bored Boosey and Hawkes Imperial was still popular? I however have a feeling that the original Besson International was a popular brass band cornet before the 921 Sovereign, and that possibly this was a large bore cornet.

Bob Stephenson, GordonH and other brass banders, I'd really appreciate your views

Playing in only amateur brass bands (the first eighteen years in a band that played a matched set of Bach 184MLs with Bach C cup mouthpieces) since 1994, I don't really know personally.

Many Thanks

Take Care

Lou



What an interesting topic! As for myself, I´ve been playing in the same Brass Band since 1959 - and what a difference in sound between say 1960 and now 2017. As is pointed out, (Bob S - very informative thanks!)
most instruments have changed. Can still remember when we got a tuba with interchangeable bells, one turned forward; a much fatter sound than the others´. And the bass trombone player who used a handle to reach out. And the trombones were all thin. Today everyone uses trombones with valves all over the place.
And the cornets; yes my first cornet was a Czechian one, soon to be replaced by a Besson; can´t remember what kind; mouthpiece? Salvatíon Army nr 1......1969 I wasn´t able to get anything out of it so I bought a Vincent Bach 1 1/4. Quite a difference in sound! (for sopranochair I used a very lovely instrument, still up to date as of today, a Getzen Eterna, M:t Vernon 1 1/2. Our principal (he still is....used the SA nr 1 up to 1995 - but he was "brought up" in the Salvation Army. As I played second solocornet sometimes we had big differences soundwise......I´m also familiar with the Imperial - we have some battered relics.... The valves were not as fast as the Getzens´ and the sound clearly thinner, less core. But a lovely sound in itself but completely impossible to mix with the Getzens. Also, high register seemed easier with the Getzens (at least to me).
Anyhow - the band output was bright - (I´still love that bright cornet sound as in Cornet Carillion..). Very bright, and probably thin...compared to the sound of today. Cornets began to be replaced by US - brands, mostly Getzen Eternas (although one young man has a Sovereign). The Eterna is brighter than the Custom Series now popular. The soprano today is a tiny Schilke (I dislike it), hard to play in pitch but lovely sound (the guy is a pro).

So I would say instruments have become more "fullbodied"; all these Wicks have contributed a lot. As far as I know everyone in the band uses a Wick today, horn, euphonium, trombones etc. Regarding them - my opinion is that the deeper and bigger ones require too much of an amateur, at least when it comes to endurance and the high register. But the sound can be velvet-like.....Wick 2:s?? Bird bath! Or for those mouthed ant-eaterwise
ps what a charming performance Sir Buzzalot! Thanks!
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Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


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ajwan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
.........Interesting because the popular brass band 'understanding' a the time of his conducting top bands was that James was a 'pro orchestral trumpet player'...and VERY few top players can play as well on both instruments withou some duplication of style...aprt from Maurice Murphy who had that wonderful distinctive sound on both!

.........it is entirely possible that he used a trumpet on the recording of the London Wind Orch.........whhich is a largely forgotten ensemble now but was lead by Dennis Wick, pro trumbonist, using mainly players from the Guards Brigade bands in London. I don't think Wick was a Guards player as he mainly did West End show playing....


Thanks for your additional insight to James Watson as a "pro orchestral trumpet player". No doubt this likely influenced James style in the 1978 recording.

I'll note that the 1978 CD label that presents the London Wind Orchestra band members, only cornets are listed - no trumpets.

Cheers,
Andrew
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ajwan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

With reference to this thread, I have been discussing this topic with someone recently:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143425

In my opinion, the brass band cornet sound, and in fact the sound of brass bands in general, has changed over time, becoming bigger and broader, with a larger dynamic range, especially towards the louder dynamic end.

Considering that the Sovereign has been pretty much the standard brass band cornet for years, I am interested in how the evolution of the Sovereign relates to the change in brass band cornet sound.

What I mean, is that I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial. It has a small sweet sound, and I like it very much for traditional cornet solos, but I don't find that it works very well in a modern British-style brass band. It is ok at quieter dynamics, but gets completely buried in the section at louder dynamics, and I have found that you have the choice of either working far too hard or not hearing yourself, hence why I consider my Yamaha Xeno to be a much better modern brass band cornet.

Looking at the evolution of the Sovereign in GordonH's very informative blog, which I posted a link to below, the 0.466" bore size of the 1974-1984 Boosey and Hawkes 921 Sovereign (popular large bore "round stamp" model) is the same as the 1984 to present day 928 Sovereign.

http://www.ecalpemos.org/2012/08/my-definitive-guide-to-sovereign-cornet.html

I fully appreciate that my Boosey and Hawkes Imperial is similar to the medium bore 920 Sovereign rather than the large bore 921 Sovereign. Regarding the more popular large bore 921 Sovereign, I haven't seen many in the flesh, and the only one I have played, was one for sale used when I bought my first new 928 Sovereign in the mid 1990s. This one was in a poor state of repair and didn't play very well.

Therefore, to those who have played both the 921 Sovereign and 928 Sovereign, what please is the difference in sound between the two? Does the 928 Sovereign have a bigger broader sound? If not, what please do you consider to be the reason for the bigger broader modern brass band sound, as presumably if it did not coincide with the introduction of the 928 Sovereign, since the Sovereign remains largely unchanged, it cannot be owing to anything to do with the cornets themselves? Or did the change occur prior to the introduction of the 921 Sovereign, when the smaller bored Boosey and Hawkes Imperial was still popular? I however have a feeling that the original Besson International was a popular brass band cornet before the 921 Sovereign, and that possibly this was a large bore cornet.

Bob Stephenson, GordonH and other brass banders, I'd really appreciate your views

Playing in only amateur brass bands (the first eighteen years in a band that played a matched set of Bach 184MLs with Bach C cup mouthpieces) since 1994, I don't really know personally.

Many Thanks

Take Care

Lou



What an interesting topic! As for myself, I´ve been playing in the same Brass Band since 1959 - and what a difference in sound between say 1960 and now 2017. As is pointed out, (Bob S - very informative thanks!)
most instruments have changed. Can still remember when we got a tuba with interchangeable bells, one turned forward; a much fatter sound than the others´. And the bass trombone player who used a handle to reach out. And the trombones were all thin. Today everyone uses trombones with valves all over the plays.
And the cornets; yes my first cornet was a Czechian one, soon to be replaced by a Besson; can´t remember what kind; mouthpiece? Salvatíon Army nr 1......1969 I wasn´t able to get anything out of it so I bought a Vincent Bach 1 1/4. Quite a difference in sound! (for sopranochair I used a very lovely instrument, still up to date as of today, a Getzen Eterna, M:t Vernon 1 1/2. Our principal (he still is....used the SA nr 1 up to 1995 - but he was "brought up" in the Salvation Army. As I played second solocornet sometimes we had big differences soundwise......I´m also familiar with the Imperial - we have some battered relics.... The valves were not as fast as the Getzens´ and the sound clearly thinner, less core. But a lovely sound in itself but completely impossible to mix with the Getzens. Also, high register seemed easier with the Getzens (at least to me).
Anyhow - the band output was bright - (I´still love that bright cornet sound as in Cornet Carillion..). Very bright, and probably thin...compared to the sound of today. Cornets began to be replaced by US - brands, mostly Getzen Eternas (although one young man has a Sovereign). The Eterna is brighter than the Custom Series now popular. The soprano today is a tiny Schilke (I dislike it), hard to play in pitch but lovely sound (the guy is a pro).

So I would say instruments have become more "fullbodied"; all these Wicks have contributed a lot. As far as I know everyone in the band uses a Wick today, horn, euphonium, trombones etc. Regarding them - my opinion is that the deeper and bigger ones require too much of an amateur, at least when it comes to endurance and the high register. But the sound can be velvet-like.....Wick 2:s?? Bird bath! Or for those mouthed ant-eaterwise
ps what a charming performance Sir Buzzalot! Thanks!


So when you boil it down, it would seem that it's the Besson Sovereign from 1984-onwards/DW combo is responsible in large for the general cornet "sound" we know of today?
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Last edited by ajwan on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
Wow Lou!......VERY interesting question(s)

I don't think there is one answer so much as a historical progression of bands, and more importantly, BB music itself...... My observations are possibly a bit 'jumbled' and only presented here as they come to (my) mind!

In the last 50+ years (the years of my assciation wih brass bands as both man and boy) bands have changed completely from the basically Victorian ensemble that still existed after WWII. Of the 8 BB instruments only the tenor horn is the same and would be instantly recognised by a Victorian player. All the others have undergone substantial change to meet changng modern demands on both bands and the players....however, it's the cornet that you are asking about so lets start there;

For those who don't realise it the Victorian cornet was a smaller instrument that was initially an orchestral and military instrument...the trumpet was quite a different thing and, although archaic, was without valves and only used for high heraldic passages as an addition to orchestral and other ensembles such as it's use by the State Trumpeters at Royal events and ceremonies.

The cornet was a 'new' instrument enabled by the invention of the valve and replaced the 'cornette,' which was a member of the serpent family being a sort or recorder with cup mouthpiece, and the 'keyed bugle' which was a military instrument used by, for example, the Guards Bands in London who had some virtuoso key bugle players. Because the cornette was used in various keys, mainly Bb, C & A the new 'cornet' was thus equipped with different shanks to enable a similar use. These shanks were plain tubes with no taper and contributed to the sweet 'small' tone of the cornet.

When brass bands were first formed as working class musical ensembles they were essentially confined to playing hymns and orchestral transcriptions with a few marches added for light relief. The cornet, with it's shanks, was an obvious choice to play the violin parts in transcriptions and the cornette parts in the hymns and marches.

Between the world wars the valve trumpet rose to prominance, notably in America where jazz gave it new and exciting possibilities, although as we know, many 'jazzers' were using the cornet. In addition the emergence of the great American big bands and film music also changed the musical landscape in favour of the trumpet sound and style.

So, after WWII UK brass bands were forced to change by rapid developments in the repertoire and a strong contesting ethos which demanded technical progression and increased virtuosity.......the old instruments, especially the Victorian 'peashooter' cornet were severly found lacking! UK makers were also threatened by new brass instruments from America including the 'long cornet' or 'mezzo trumpet' (as Besson prefered them to be called) The peashooter could not give the volume of sound needed and was pretty much limited to the one type of sweet, Victorian sound. The shanks had by now become obsolete as the cornet had passed out of orchestras in favour of the valve trumpet ( which was usually equipped for both Bb & A, but no longer C)

The Besson Co.(the 'real' one not B&H) rose to the new challenges with some innovative R&D. Aware that American makers (and the Sally Army factory at Hemel Hempstead) were removing the shanks and fitting properly tapered leadpipes theye used this feature to change the cornet design and begin the transition into the larger bore, fully flexible instrument we know today...firstly with some research models used by the best soloists (such as the young Maurice Murphy) and then into the '10-10' which in turn became the 'International' which it was hoped would challenge American instrument both in the UK and abroad.

Once B&H (who had aquired Besson after wwII) saw what Besson had achieved they killed Besson and eventually took this business for themsel ves by the introduction of the 'round stamp' Sovereign.....there was a major upset in the band world at the loss of Besson and the 'Int' along with new Euphonium models etc.

Partly to satisfy serious unhappiness among bands B&H redesigned the Sov. by means of scientific research and design to make the 928.......several experimental prototypes were played by blindfolded players and the best one (no. '928') placed into production.

In actual fact the 928 does not play very different to the 'round stamp' especially in the low register where the round stamp has a more positive voice......just my view!


Hi Bob

Thank you very much for your very informative reply.

Regarding the original Besson International, do you happen to know or remember what is its bore size? I know that you have previously said that you feel that the Besson International is a better cornet than the 921 Sovereign, but how do you feel they compare in terms of sound and playability?

Many Thanks

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajwan wrote:
Bob Stevenson wrote:
.........Interesting because the popular brass band 'understanding' a the time of his conducting top bands was that James was a 'pro orchestral trumpet player'...and VERY few top players can play as well on both instruments withou some duplication of style...aprt from Maurice Murphy who had that wonderful distinctive sound on both!

.........it is entirely possible that he used a trumpet on the recording of the London Wind Orch.........whhich is a largely forgotten ensemble now but was lead by Dennis Wick, pro trumbonist, using mainly players from the Guards Brigade bands in London. I don't think Wick was a Guards player as he mainly did West End show playing....


Thanks for your additional insight to James Watson as a "pro orchestral trumpet player". No doubt this likely influenced James style in the 1978 recording.

Hi Andrew

Regarding this, I tried to google what cornet James Watson used and found his obituary, which details how he started on cornet.

i.e.

Supported by the Leicestershire musical family into which he was born, Watson became known from an early age for his prowess on the cornet. Not only did he become principal cornet of the Desford Colliery Band at the age of 11, but he also won both the junior and senior champion soloist of Great Britain titles in 1966, aged just 14. In fact he won the national championships of Great Britain on six occasions, as well as the British Open and European championship and five regional titles with four separate bands.

Watson went on to study the trumpet at the Royal Academy, after which, at the age of 22, he secured another first when he was chosen by Rudolf Kempe for the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra as the youngest principal trumpet in the orchestra's history.


Taken from the following link:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/16/james-watson-obituary

I think that the following statement from is obituary is very relevant:

His trumpet playing, which unsurprisingly owed much to his background, was marked by a tonal quality reminiscent of the cornet and by outstanding technical facility and flair.

Although I believe that this is recording is on a cornet, as you explain below, I am sure when I saw him playing in front of Black Dyke on Groundforce, that he was actually playing a trumpet, despite the cornet nature of his sound.

Take care

Lou


I'll note that the 1978 CD label that presents the London Wind Orchestra band members, only cornets are listed - no trumpets.

Cheers,
Andrew

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajwan wrote:
A very interesting discussion!

Hi Andrew

Thank you very much.


In another thread (http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1498660#1498660) I bring up the 1978 London Wind Orchestra recording of Folk Song Suite - Seventeen Come Sunday, conducted by Denis Wick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KARQn0p2us4

Having James Watson as the leading cornetist and Denis Wick as the conductor really seems to give this particular recording some serious cred.

(As I have the CD, a closer look at the CD label made me realize after all these years that the Denis Wick who conducted the London Wind Orchestra during the recording back in 1978 appears to be the same Denis Wick of the company that makes some of our favourite mouthpieces. I have much to learn it seems. )

Yes, it is the same Denis Wick. He was born in the town where I'm from.

As Louise mentioned in her recent post (and during a PM with me):

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143439

James may have used a BH Imperial (unknown for sure) at the time (1978) which may have possessed a smaller/sweeter sound.

To be honest, I have a feeling that this is probably not particularly likely, as this was the era of the Boosey and Hawkes Sovereign, although I used my B&H Imperial as an example of a cornet from the past that has a smaller sweeter sound.

However, James's solo cornet parts clearly cut through the wind orchestra, despite the intensity of the passage (especially in the 3rd movement; not available on youtube). So perhaps James's style and Denis's interpretation is a one-off?

Strangely enough I have found that although the Imperial gets buried in section playing in a modern brass band, it projects ok in solo passages, and I feel that it would project better in a wind orchestra rather than a modern brass band. So if James was using an Imperial, I reckon that the cornet solos would project just fine.

I personally don't think that Denis's interpretation is particularly unusual, but that is not to say that I don't think that it is a very nice recording. Regarding James's style, I suppose it is as unique as any one player's recordings. I like it anyhow.


I do realize some do consider James's intonation as thin and too trumpet-like. But to me it makes the cornet's contra-melodies all the more distinct in the recording.

I agree with your last statement. Sounds nice to me. And trumpet-like,
not to my ears, just a smaller more old fashioned cornet sound.


I've since listened to more of James's recordings on youtube and you can hear a similar signature.

I'm not over familiar with his recordings, and will have to listen some time, but I think that we all have our own sound, and this is his.

Take care

Lou


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:


Hi Seymor

What an interesting topic!

Thank you very much.

As for myself, I´ve been playing in the same Brass Band since 1959 - and what a difference in sound between say 1960 and now 2017.

How wonderful. You must know the band so well, and have seen so many changes.

As is pointed out, (Bob S - very informative thanks!) most instruments have changed. Can still remember when we got a tuba with interchangeable bells, one turned forward; a much fatter sound than the others´. And the bass trombone player who used a handle to reach out. And the trombones were all thin. Today everyone uses trombones with valves all over the plays.
And the cornets; yes my first cornet was a Czechian one, soon to be replaced by a Besson; can´t remember what kind; mouthpiece? Salvatíon Army nr 1......1969 I wasn´t able to get anything out of it so I bought a Vincent Bach 1 1/4. Quite a difference in sound! (for sopranochair I used a very lovely instrument, still up to date as of today, a Getzen Eterna, M:t Vernon 1 1/2. Our principal (he still is....used the SA nr 1 up to 1995 - but he was "brought up" in the Salvation Army. As I played second solocornet sometimes we had big differences soundwise......

Very interesting, thank you very much.

I´m also familiar with the Imperial - we have some battered relics.... The valves were not as fast as the Getzens´ and the sound clearly thinner, less core. But a lovely sound in itself but completely impossible to mix with the Getzens. Also, high register seemed easier with the Getzens (at least to me).

I haven't played a Getzen cornet, but I like the Imperial. I keep one as a spare cornet.

Anyhow - the band output was bright - (I´still love that bright cornet sound as in Cornet Carillion..). Very bright, and probably thin...compared to the sound of today.

I understand. You probably however had the sound of the time.

Cornets began to be replaced by US - brands, mostly Getzen Eternas (although one young man has a Sovereign). The Eterna is brighter than the Custom Series now popular. The soprano today is a tiny Schilke (I dislike it), hard to play in pitch but lovely sound (the guy is a pro).

I understand, thanks. This is one way in which the US brass band differ, as the 928 Sovereign replaced the earlier cornets, and the popular cornets now seem to be the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and the Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo.

So I would say instruments have become more "fullbodied"; all these Wicks have contributed a lot. As far as I know everyone in the band uses a Wick today, horn, euphonium, trombones etc. Regarding them - my opinion is that the deeper and bigger ones require too much of an amateur, at least when it comes to endurance and the high register. But the sound can be velvet-like.....Wick 2:s?? Bird bath! Or for those mouthed ant-eaterwise

Yes, I agree that the Denis Wick mouthpieces have contributed a lot to the modern brass band cornet sound. I personally don't like their rims, insufficient fall-away to outside in my opinion, but I like their sound/playability with a Besson cornet.

Take care

Lou


ps what a charming performance Sir Buzzalot! Thanks!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

ajwan wrote:

So when you boil it down, it would seem that it's the Besson Sovereign from 1984-onwards/DW combo is responsible in large for the general cornet "sound" we know of today?


Yes, in my opinion as very well demonstrated below:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/privmsg.php?mode=quote&p=380918

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndsnRVDzVMo

Sadly as much as I like the sound of the Sovereign/Denis Wick combination, I personally just don't like playing the 928 Sovereign. I've sold two, and given a 927 Sovereign to my step-daughter (I don't think I have ever liked a cornet less than the 927 Sovereign).

I can't really put my finger on it. I only like the Sovereign with a Denis Wick mouthpiece. With other less open mouthpieces, I find it pretty stuffy and rigid slotting. Personally, although I don't like the sound as much, I just feel more at home on the Xeno, and it seems to suit me better. Someone years ago once remarked that they thought that the Xeno was a more compatible cornet for trumpet/cornet doublers. I don't know, but I do play trumpet as much as cornet, so maybe there is something in this.

I have the only Yamaha cornet in my brass band, although the tenor horns are Yamaha, as is one of the Eb basses. Our new conductor has had a go on my cornet, and remarked how free blowing it is compared to a Sovereign, and he thinks it has a nice sound. I'm happy with it anyhow. I haven't played a round stamp Sovereign (well only one briefly, which was in a poor state of repair), and out of the ones I have played, my favourite Boosey and Hawkes/Besson cornet has been the Imperial.

Best wishes

Lou
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
ajwan wrote:

So when you boil it down, it would seem that it's the Besson Sovereign from 1984-onwards/DW combo is responsible in large for the general cornet "sound" we know of today?


Yes, in my opinion as very well demonstrated below:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/privmsg.php?mode=quote&p=380918

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndsnRVDzVMo

Sadly as much as I like the sound of the Sovereign/Denis Wick combination, I personally just don't like playing the 928 Sovereign. I've sold two, and given a 927 Sovereign to my step-daughter (I don't think I have ever liked a cornet less than the 927 Sovereign).

I can't really put my finger on it. I only like the Sovereign with a Denis Wick mouthpiece. With other less open mouthpieces, I find it pretty stuffy and rigid slotting. Personally, although I don't like the sound as much, I just feel more at home on the Xeno, and it seems to suit me better. Someone years ago once remarked that they thought that the Xeno was a more compatible cornet for trumpet/cornet doublers. I don't know, but I do play trumpet as much as cornet, so maybe there is something in this.

I have the only Yamaha cornet in my brass band, although the tenor horns are Yamaha, as is one of the Eb basses. Our new conductor has had a go on my cornet, and remarked how free blowing it is compared to a Sovereign, and he thinks it has a nice sound. I'm happy with it anyhow. I haven't played a round stamp Sovereign (well only one briefly, which was in a poor state of repair), and out of the ones I have played, my favourite Boosey and Hawkes/Besson cornet has been the Imperial.

Best wishes

Lou


Well, in the end of the day, one's talent should be enabled by the instrument and not held back. We all have our own preferences/idiosyncrasies. If the Xeno allows your talent to fully manifest yet blend, then consider yourself unique among a sea of Bessons!

Cheers,
Andrew
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having attended the last 3 North American Brass Band Competitions I offer a couple observations as to what I heard. The Low brass and Alto Horn sound is a modern sound. The instruments they are playing are big modern instruments with improved intonation that reinforces the overtones creating a a very big sound. I found that there was a bit of a lack in balance in the hall between the Low/Mid brass compared to the Cornets. I felt the lower brass covered a lot of the nuance that the cornet section was attempting to achieve. I also think the mouthpieces that the lower brass are using are more modern as well. So it seems the lower brass players are using equipment that is manufactured to be big and full with lots of color. It was my take that the cornetists were searching for the darkest sound possible. This sound was not doing them any favors in the projection department. I am not a brass band player so these are observations that are from a listeners perspective. Best, Jon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning James Watson, give this a read. He seems to have had an early history with brass bands and a successful later career with a few well-known bands. Pretty good for a "trumpet player"...

https://www.divine-art.co.uk/AS/jameswatson.htm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise,

An interesting topic, and Bob's reply probably explains most of the change. Always interesting to hear older recordings of Brass Bands to hear the change in tone.

Another factor, perhaps less in the UK than down here in OZ, is that a lot of BBB players come from the school system, where they usually learn trumpet and orchestral/jazz style repertoire, before being hoiked into a Brass Band by one of their friends etc. Over time I think that has changed the approach of cornet sections here and there.

Also, the development of mouthpieces is something that shouldn't be forgotten - again a lot of the science of that has been driven from the trumpet side of the ledger.

As to the difference between the Round Stamp and 928 Sovs, having played both I'd say there isn't much of a one really, both great cornets if you get a good one. We have a new member at our Band that has the most beautifully preserved Round Stamp I've seen in ages, and it plays like a dream.

I think the "break" between old-fashioned cornets and modern ones occurred before the Round Stamp - probably even before the Imperial. Just my thoughts though.

Cheers,
Roger
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sort of an outsider looking in, but I've noticed that recent albums by bands that I follow (Black Dyke, Cory) often feature new compositions that seem to call for big, broad, bright playing from the band (e.g., Fanfare and Celebration by Philip Sparke, or Fanfare in Iubilio by Thomas Doss, or Perihelion by Philip Sparke). I read comments about how BBB cornetists are supposed to play with a dark mellow sound, then I listen to these recordings and I don't see it. These pieces call for fiery, brilliant playing, and that's how these bands play them.

These albums also include a few pieces that call for sweet cantilena playing, but there seems to be more emphasis on the barn burners.
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