Modern brass band cornet sound being bigger and broader

[p76]

Good point dstdenis, the style of writing for bands has changed as well (and for the better, I might add).

Possibly a chicken and egg thing - Bands for popular entertainment were pulling out versions of newer tunes that led to a brighter style, which led to commissioned pieces taking advantage of that new "skill" in a band's repertoire of abilities and so on and so on in a bit of a feedback loop.

Most bands are still required (and like) to play hymns, and I think that what has happened is that while bands have become brighter, they can still "darken it down" when it is appropriate.

For me there is still no better sound than that of a Brass Band playing a hymn. We have just had ANZAC Day here downunder, and I never get sick of hearing the Bands play Abide with me and Eternal Father Strong to save...

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[davidm]

Having been to the Australian National Band championships over Easter the Yamaha Xeno (and now I guess it will be Neo) cornets seem to pretty much have a stranglehold on the higher grade bands, so I guess that at least here the big broad sound is pretty much "standard" now.

Certainly the group I play with issues Xenos to the B grade band - the C grade one gets whatever is left over, which is a mix of student-grade Yamahas and random older Bessons.

[p76]

Yamaha have been cornering the market in cornets here David, without a doubt. I'm secretary at my Band (current D grade champion band of Victoria ), and when we go and buy cornets Yamaha can't be beaten as a value for money proposition.

When they were swapping to the New from the Xeno, we purchased 3 Xenos for the price of one Sovereign. Deals aren't that good now, but Yamaha still considerably cheaper.

Yamahas are also easier for lower level players to play, which means that people often start with a Yamaha, and then stick to what they know through their playing lives....

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[GordonH]

I think also the tendency for leading players to have studied trumpet or played in military bands had an influence on the sound. When I was a boy you couldn't study cornet or euphonium so people switched to tuba and trumpet. It was a class thing really.

Repertoire got more symphonic too and this stoked the equipment development end of the cycle. So you had the B cup wick mouthpieces and freer blowing instruments leading to more volume.

My cornet sound is considered old fashioned and generally not liked by conductors. My trumpet sound is completely different.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Dale Proctor]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Hi

I was thinking about this topic in my brass band last night. We played a wide range of repertoire, a lot of it sweet and delicate, but we spent some time last night, as we were trialling a potential new conductor, playing our old favourite, the Best of Bond.

There is a cornet solo in the middle of You Only Live Twice, which is pitched pretty low.

Basically this one, which is a pretty poor quality which I have found on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k8u8q3dCiI

When I play this, I concentrate on a big full projecting sound with no vibrato. A traditional brass band sound is not what I am looking for, but James Bond is hardly traditional brass band repertoire, so I feel justified in sound concept.

I selected the first clip despite its poor quality, because I feel that the soloist has a sound concept along the lines of what I feel is appropriate for this piece.

This two recordings by young players, give it a more cornet-like approach (especially the second one) than I have in my head.

i.e.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3p7JsYukNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R50So1QoTUU

I noticed last night just how different my cornet sound is depending what I am playing. I don't have the same sound concept for the solo in the Best of Bond, so repertoire probably does have big effect on cornet sound.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[trumpetera]

[SirBuzzALot]

[Dale Proctor]

[dmamazon]

What a great topic! Recently, in response to a thread about the Brass Band Cornet sound here, as usual I wrote a pretty long post and ended up discarding it. I seem to do that alot:)
Anyway...YES. The sound is much bigger and broader. It is quite amazing how big that the cornet sections in the established bands can sound. Black Dyke completely blew me away at Brass in Concert last year...well most of the bands just a HUGE cornet sound and could turn it on immediately...then play a barely audible whisper.
From what I gather, the brass band cornet section has become its own entity..with several different sounds making a whole. There isn't just 1 sound! Here in the U.S. we just strive to be like an orchestra..players with matching tones and styles. Will it blend! That is the question!
Here is what I think a British style brass band is made up of in the cornet section:
Principal: The most beautiful sound of the section...and yes this has gravitated toward a larger, more broad sound. The featured soloist.
Bumper: A beautiful sound, just like the principal so they can take the solos if the principal is ill but also the ability to do most of the HEAVY lifting and playing on the top solo cornet lines. A hard seat!
Tutti Solo Cornets: Here is where the biggest, broadest sounds come from...these players put out the most sound of the solo row. These players can concentrate on just getting that big, broad sound on the solo parts.
Sop: Obviously a smaller sound(unless you are Paul Richards)..MOST of the brightness in the section comes from the Sop.
Repiano: Bridges the gap between the Big, Broad sound of all the rest of the cornets and the Sop. I like to call it the "Orchestral Trumpet" of the brass band. Brighter than the rest of the cornets...but also the ability to solo with that different sound. The brass band composers write for this sound!
2nd/3rd: Big, Broad sound...but have to be able to put out an ENORMOUS amount of sound to balance. At brass in concert I was just floored by how much the low back row cornets could put out.

So, to answer the threads question...YES i think that the brass band movement has went to a Bigger, Broader sound, but you can really dial in your sound to the job you will do in the band...if you are wanting to seriously do the brass band thing correct. Now take it...the majority of brass bands in the U.S. especially but UK as well are basically community bands that are NON contesting and nobody is concerned with dialing in sounds! There is nothing more terrifying than hearing a 3rd cornet part played on a small bore cornet with a Schilke 13a4a cornet mpc:)

Sorry for the length, big brass band geek here;)

[TKSop]

I wonder whether its (partly) a gradual adaptation to differences in arranging and writing?

Less duplicated lines in the writing (in many cases) may mean that each individual voice needs to carry more breadth and weight to fill out and balance up to the rest of the band (which hasn't gotten any quieter over time), rather than relying on the volume and complexity in sound coming from multiple players playing the same lines in unison?


Like anything, there do seem to be "fashions" or "trends" in what the preferred sound is among the top bands and it does seem (to me) that whilst the instruments and volume may have been headed in a certain direction, the sound itself meanders a bit more. In the late 90's and early noughties certain bands seemed to have much "harder" sounds than the warmer sounds in the later noughties and early 2010's, followed by what feels now like it's heading towards a kind of sterility in certain top bands ... and all on largely the same kind of equipment.
This is all perhaps the most pronounced among the very strongest bands and players, with the most control over the sounds they're producing, perhaps it's more obvious in the lower section bands that this kind of equipment "tends" towards a certain kind of sound?

[TKSop]

I think the tendency towards narrow and overly bright sop sounds (that dmamazon brings up above) is perhaps a seperate topic for a seperate thread...
But...

I think there's a lot of "me-too-ism" going on there.
Peter Roberts was an astonishing player and could turn on an astonishing level of brightness at will - but he had the control to not overdo it unless the music called for it.
Unfortunately, in their haste to copy that exhilarating "take over the band" tone, too many players either use it far too often (or indeed, all the time) or compromise the rest of their playing to a significant extent to achieve it... they miss the most impressive aspect of Mr Roberts playing - the control to only use it when he wanted to and the tact to (generally) only ever want use when it would enhance the music.

There's a time and a place for brightness (and there should be a suitable amount of it in the cornet parts too) - but most of the time, a classy sops place is to hold the highest line without producing such a bright tone that it draws focus from the overall picture.

I think this is a real shame - a beautiful sop sound is incredibly pleasing to my ears, and they're becoming increasingly scarce at the expense of vulgar screechers.



A description our conductor gave us recently (whilst working on Pageantry for the areas) was that the band sound should be a great big bubble - any angular or piercing tone would pierce the bubble and its beauty would be gone, and sounds hiding away would distort the shape of the bubble and spoil the uniformity of that perfect sphere of sound that should be the goal.
I found this a beautiful way of describing it - and in this case, a beautiful illustration of why such (common) vulgar sop playing is truly a blight on the brass band scene.


(Rant over... Sorry, have to get this one off the chest from time to time)

[ajwan]