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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | I don't know if Leigh's taking the Eclipse Bb cornet to ITG, but if he is and you're gonna be there you really should try it out.
The Eclipse blows away my Smith-Watkins K2 - it's the only cornet I've ever played that does. |
Eclipse cornets are amazing... We have a fabulous used one in the shop I'm shocked hasn't sold yet.
FWIW,
T |
The old ones are amazing.... the current ones are out of this world! |
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patdublc
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 1050
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| TrentAustin wrote: |
Eclipse cornets are amazing... We have a fabulous used one in the shop I'm shocked hasn't sold yet.
FWIW,
T |
I haven't seen one of those for a while, but I played the one that Alex Yates had several years ago and it was killer!!
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Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:48 am Post subject: |
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I am playing on a Besson Prestige. It meets all the requirements of intonation, sound and dynamic range that I have. I doubt there would be any advantage to paying more. Indeed it is a pretty expensive cornet anyway.
If you play on small or tight mouthpieces it is probably not the instrument for you, but if you are doing the full brass band thing then it is hard to beat.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Looking for a cornet... |
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| Phattlippz wrote: | | Who is making an outstanding cornet these days? Might be looking to level up - looking for a free-blowing horn with great 1st/3rd slide action, capable of a wide array of tonal nuances. For jazz, primarily. Any exceptional horns out there? |
Hi Phattlippz
Since you are looking for a cornet for Jazz, I'm wondering what style of mouthpiece you are thinking of using with it.
I'm doubtful that a typical brass band cornet such as the Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo or Besson Sovereign/Prestige would be the easy cornet on which to get an appropriate sound for Jazz anyway, but if you do consider these, one thing to bear in mind is that since they are brass band orientated cornets, they play better with more open mouthpieces (deeper, larger throat, more open backbore), such as a British brass band cornet mouthpieces. If you pay them with something like a Bach C cup, the Bessons in my opinion in particular, play very stuffily. The difficulty in my opinion would be finding a more open mouthpiece that didn't take the sound towards that of a brass band cornet tone.
In my opinion, I think that it would be better to look for a cornet that isn't so brass band cornet orientated and on which you can play a wider range of different styles of mouthpieces.
One option could be the Bach 184. I have the 184ML (I haven't tried the L or XL). I wouldn't say that the ML is particularly free blowing but it is not stuffy, even with more of a trumpet-style mouthpiece. I find that this responds to mouthpieces very much like a trumpet, and just sounds brighter with a shallower cup (rather than harsh and brittle like the more brass band orientated cornets can), and again in my opinion, darkens in more of a flugel direction with a deeper mouthpiece, rather than sounding like a brass band cornet.
I feel that my Bach 184ML is a pretty good cornet for Jazz. My Yamaha Xeno not so much so in my opinion. Unlike the Sovereign, which I couldn't get to work with a Bach 3C, I've found that increasing the insertion amount (applicable to a smaller mouthpiece gap on a trumpet) using a two piece Kanstul 3C/Kanstul B10 cornet backbore (so basically a 3C), allows me to play my Xeno with a 3C type mouthpiece. Even so, the resultant sound in my opinion is more suited to concert band or orchestral applications.
My husband runs a sort of Jazz band (we play a mixture of American songbook tunes and jazz standards and latin) and sometimes when I have had a brass band gig the next day, I have brought my Xeno/3C combination instead of trumpet. It is very flexible, and I like playing it for Jazz because of how it responds, but ironically except for trad or dixieland numbers, for which it seems to have an acceptable sound, it doesn't work very well, and has the wrong sound for a lot of the repertoire.
I haven't played one personally, but I have a feeling that the Getzen Eterna may be a possibility.
I hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou
P.S. What cornet please are you currently using? And what mouthpiece?
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Phattlippz
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Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: East Aurora, NY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:20 am Post subject: |
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No - it would be my 4th or 5th. I've got a nice seeet-sounding Carol Brass--it's a very warm, intimate sounding horn. Prior to that I played a mid-level older Yamaha. I've also got my grandfathers old long cornet, more for sentimental reasons.
I'm looking for another short cornet but interested in something that is really an outstanding instrument--something that makes me not want to play trumpet any more LOL.
| dstdenis wrote: | Would this be your first cornet? If so, you might consider getting a less expensive popular model, used if you can find one, and live with it for awhile. Try different mouthpiece configurations. Get some experience under your belt so you can see what you like/don't like before you move up to a more expensive pro or custom instrument.
For jazz, you would also want to decide whether you want to go down the long cornet or shepherd's crook short model path.
Here are a few suggestions:
Yamaha 2310 (long model) or earlier versions
Yamaha 2330 (short model) or earlier versions
Getzen Capri 500 series (short model)
Getzen Eterna 700 series (short model)
Getzen Eterna 800 series (short model)
Kanstul 730 (long model)
Kanstul 731 (short model)
Austin Custom Brass doublers cornet (short model)
Dillon cornet (short model) |
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dstdenis
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | | Would this be your first cornet? |
| Phattlippz wrote: | No - it would be my 4th or 5th. I've got a nice seeet-sounding Carol Brass--it's a very warm, intimate sounding horn. Prior to that I played a mid-level older Yamaha. I've also got my grandfathers old long cornet, more for sentimental reasons.
I'm looking for another short cornet but interested in something that is really an outstanding instrument--something that makes me not want to play trumpet any more LOL. |
Oh, okay. I play a Getzen 3850 that I like and would recommend you try. However, if I were in your shoes and were looking for the best cornet I could find, I'd have to try the Eclipse. I haven't played one myself, but I'm going on reports from other players who rave about this instrument. Would it work well for jazz? Probably yes, but that would be up to you to decide based on the sound and playability you want.
Looks like Eclipse will be an exhibitor at the ITG conference in Hershey PA on May 30 - June 3. Might be the best chance to try one, along with instruments from many other exhibitors. Austin Custom Brass has a used Eclipse cornet for sale, too.
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Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Phattlippz wrote: | I've got a nice seeet-sounding Carol Brass--it's a very warm, intimate sounding horn.
Hi Phattlippz
Thanks very much for confirming this. What mouthpiece are you playing with this?
I'm looking for another short cornet but interested in something that is really an outstanding instrument--something that makes me not want to play trumpet any more LOL.
I suppose it depends on which ways in which you want it to be outstanding. It would be lovely to find an instrument which is outstanding in all regards, but this is probably not realistic and also subjective.
What in particular are you looking to change/improve upon with regards to your Carol Brass cornet?
All the best
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:52 am Post subject: |
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And what's wrong with playing jazz on a trumpet?
Jazz and a cornet is possible but seldom really top.
And the cornetplayers that sound good in jazz sound like trumpetplayers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQRh4bL-tU4 |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2652
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | And what's wrong with playing jazz on a trumpet?
Jazz and a cornet is possible but seldom really top.
And the cornetplayers that sound good in jazz sound like trumpetplayers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQRh4bL-tU4 |
Nothing is wrong with it as long as you want to sound like you are playing a trumpet. If you want to sound like you are playing a cornet, and can do it playing a trumpet, then that's okay too. Some of us enjoy playing a cornet more than a trumpet and also want to sound not like a trumpet, but like a cornet. For us, there is only one way to go.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1466
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Looking for a cornet... |
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| Phattlippz wrote: | | Who is making an outstanding cornet these days? Might be looking to level up - looking for a free-blowing horn with great 1st/3rd slide action, capable of a wide array of tonal nuances. For jazz, primarily. Any exceptional horns out there? |
Why not try a Getzen Custom series with double triggers. Nice sound, agile and easy to play. Very efficient valves. More "core" than Schilke and Yamaha.
The Eterna is a bit brighter, possibly even more easy to blow.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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dacman
Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 199
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | | dstdenis wrote: | | Would this be your first cornet? |
| Phattlippz wrote: | No - it would be my 4th or 5th. I've got a nice seeet-sounding Carol Brass--it's a very warm, intimate sounding horn. Prior to that I played a mid-level older Yamaha. I've also got my grandfathers old long cornet, more for sentimental reasons.
I'm looking for another short cornet but interested in something that is really an outstanding instrument--something that makes me not want to play trumpet any more LOL. |
Oh, okay. I play a Getzen 3850 that I like and would recommend you try. However, if I were in your shoes and were looking for the best cornet I could find, I'd have to try the Eclipse. I haven't played one myself, but I'm going on reports from other players who rave about this instrument. Would it work well for jazz? Probably yes, but that would be up to you to decide based on the sound and playability you want.
Looks like Eclipse will be an exhibitor at the ITG conference in Hershey PA on May 30 - June 3. Might be the best chance to try one, along with instruments from many other exhibitors. Austin Custom Brass has a used Eclipse cornet for sale, too. |
Yes, Leigh and I will be at ITG this year representing Eclipse and we are definitely bringing the Bb cornet (along with many other fun toys). They truly are great instruments. Hopefully you can swing by and try them. Also, I'm the US dealer and I always have a couple in stock available for trial.
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Authorized Dealer of Eclipse Trumpets
Don Cornelius
Braw Brass
http://www.brawbrass.com
info@brawbrass.com |
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Mark Bradley
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Joined: 28 Jan 2002
Posts: 1149
Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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A friend of mine recently got a Smith-Watkins Soloist and its probably the "best" cornet I've ever played. I love my Schilke XA1 but this Soloist is a flat out amazing instrument. Of course it's one of those "if money is no object" type things, they aren't cheap.
http://www.smithwatkins.com/product-range/cornets/cornets-b/soloist.html
_________________
Bach 180S-25/ ACB 7M
Blessing 1580
Bach 181SML cornet/ Laskey 60SB
Yamaha 8315G flugel/ Reeves 42F |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2652
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Looking for a cornet... |
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| Phattlippz wrote: | Well - sky's the limit within reason. I probably can't afford Monette, but would definitely consider a custom horn.
| ajwan wrote: | | Phattlippz wrote: | | Who is making an outstanding cornet these days? Might be looking to level up - looking for a free-blowing horn with great 1st/3rd slide action, capable of a wide array of tonal nuances. For jazz, primarily. Any exceptional horns out there? |
What's your budget? Are you like me and sticking to <$1000, or sky's the limit? Established brand matters or a smaller shop?
Cheers,
Andrew |
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I'm going to put a plug in for a cornet that I have. There are two of these in existence that I know of. The first one was made for a player in Texas by DQ Custom Trumpets.
http://www.dqscustomshop.com/
When I heard about this horn, I asked a bunch of questions of the player and of Mike Del Quadro. I eventually had my own made to the same specs. It is a Conn 80A that Mike puts a copper bell on. He will do the horn any way you want. The initial concept was for a cornet that approaches a flugel in tone but is more responsive and cornet like than the usual flugel. But it will do anything you want from brighter to more diffuse. I am now using it with a Flip Oakes standard cornet mouthpiece for my traditional jazz band. The five inch copper bell imparts a warmth to the tone and a breadth to the sound that the original bell did not have. Nothing else sounds like it. I bought the donor horn for around $250 and that started the process.
[img] [/img]
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Been down at Leigh's (Eclipse) workshop again today...
Couldn't put the Bb cornet down (and it's not really why I was there) - absolutely astonishing to play, massive tone (warm and yet incredibly resonant, "radiant" would be a great description) and a lovely balance in the hand.
As with previous visits, it's impossible to overstate just how good those cornets are. Every bit as easy to play as my Smith-Watkins K2, but the sound is just on a completely different level.
As Don Cornelius said above - he'll definitely have these Cornets at ITG, if you're going then you simply must try one (and prepare to want it... badly!) |
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lipshurt
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Location: vista ca
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: |
hey how do i get this picture to show in my post? I used to know how to do that! |
{img}___link___{/img}
Sub square brackets for the curlies.
(Or just quote this post and you'll see the way).
Nice mouthpiece blank, btw. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | Been down at Leigh's (Eclipse) workshop again today...
Couldn't put the Bb cornet down (and it's not really why I was there) - absolutely astonishing to play, massive tone (warm and yet incredibly resonant, "radiant" would be a great description) and a lovely balance in the hand.
As with previous visits, it's impossible to overstate just how good those cornets are. Every bit as easy to play as my Smith-Watkins K2, but the sound is just on a completely different level.
As Don Cornelius said above - he'll definitely have these Cornets at ITG, if you're going then you simply must try one (and prepare to want it... badly!) |
Hi TKSop
Sounds both great and also one to avoid trying, for the reason which you say above.
When you say that the sound is on a completely different level to your K2, are you saying that it has the playability of your K2 with the richness of sound of say a Besson Prestige, or that the sound is even richer?
When I last tried cornets, my opinion was that the Xeno had the nicest playability but thinnest sound, that the Prestige has the richest sound but a tighter blow and more rigid slotting, and that the Smith Watkins K2 was a nice compromise between the two, with the flexibility of the Xeno and a sound almost as rich as the Prestige.
As you know, I've ended up on the Xeno, and however it compares to other brass band cornets, I must admit that I really like it.
To the OP, at the end of the day, I think that it comes down to what you like. I seem to form definite preferences and for me, whether I enjoy playing a particular instrument is in some ways more important than the sound.
For example, and admittedly they are trumpets, but when I play my Bach 37, I am always really pleased with just how nice it sounds. I however prefer playing my Xeno, even though the sound is not quite so rich, because the response is just so even throughout the registers and it just plays so well. My only complaint is that it is just a fraction on the slotty side for my taste for swing repertoire, but that it more than made up by how well it performs in orchestral situations. My Xeno is like a quiet refined executive saloon car, whereas my Bach 37 is a bit more raw, with a bit more performance at the cost of being a little less refined. I like both, but I find myself picking up the Xeno II.
To get to the point, I think that you have to find the cornet that jumps out as the one that you want to live with on a daily basis. I think that the Besson Sovereign and Prestige have a lovely sound (for a brass band anyway), but I hate playing them. I like playing the Xeno cornet, so that it the one I play everyday.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | Been down at Leigh's (Eclipse) workshop again today...
Couldn't put the Bb cornet down (and it's not really why I was there) - absolutely astonishing to play, massive tone (warm and yet incredibly resonant, "radiant" would be a great description) and a lovely balance in the hand.
As with previous visits, it's impossible to overstate just how good those cornets are. Every bit as easy to play as my Smith-Watkins K2, but the sound is just on a completely different level.
As Don Cornelius said above - he'll definitely have these Cornets at ITG, if you're going then you simply must try one (and prepare to want it... badly!) |
Hi TKSop
Sounds both great and also one to avoid trying, for the reason which you say above.
When you say that the sound is on a completely different level to your K2, are you saying that it has the playability of your K2 with the richness of sound of say a Besson Prestige, or that the sound is even richer?
When I last tried cornets, my opinion was that the Xeno had the nicest playability but thinnest sound, that the Prestige has the richest sound but a tighter blow and more rigid slotting, and that the Smith Watkins K2 was a nice compromise between the two, with the flexibility of the Xeno and a sound almost as rich as the Prestige.
As you know, I've ended up on the Xeno, and however it compares to other brass band cornets, I must admit that I really like it.
To the OP, at the end of the day, I think that it comes down to what you like. I seem to form definite preferences and for me, whether I enjoy playing a particular instrument is in some ways more important than the sound.
For example, and admittedly they are trumpets, but when I play my Bach 37, I am always really pleased with just how nice it sounds. I however prefer playing my Xeno, even though the sound is not quite so rich, because the response is just so even throughout the registers and it just plays so well. My only complaint is that it is just a fraction on the slotty side for my taste for swing repertoire, but that it more than made up by how well it performs in orchestral situations. My Xeno is like a quiet refined executive saloon car, whereas my Bach 37 is a bit more raw, with a bit more performance at the cost of being a little less refined. I like both, but I find myself picking up the Xeno II.
To get to the point, I think that you have to find the cornet that jumps out as the one that you want to live with on a daily basis. I think that the Besson Sovereign and Prestige have a lovely sound (for a brass band anyway), but I hate playing them. I like playing the Xeno cornet, so that it the one I play everyday.
All the best
Lou |
Hi Lou,
It's one of those moments where I'm not sure exactly which words to use... I could say the sound is like a sovereign without the dullness - all those rich lows, breadth and weight of sound but just with more life to it somehow, if you follow?
For me it plays just as well with more trumpetty mouthpieces as with huge wick's, McCann's and the 16e - the tone reflects the mouthpiece change of course, but it doesn't seem to fight some mouthpieces like certain corners seem to.
I can't fault the Yamaha xeno/neo series cornets for getting the job done, but they're a bit... Vanilla? Underappreciated yet unexciting, impossible to hate yet not easy to love... Or maybe that's just me... |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: |
Hi Lou,
Hi TKSop
It's one of those moments where I'm not sure exactly which words to use... I could say the sound is like a sovereign without the dullness - all those rich lows, breadth and weight of sound but just with more life to it somehow, if you follow?
Thanks very much. Sounds great!
For me it plays just as well with more trumpetty mouthpieces as with huge wick's, McCann's and the 16e - the tone reflects the mouthpiece change of course, but it doesn't seem to fight some mouthpieces like certain corners seem to.
That is interesting, thanks, and something I personally like in a cornet, doing other cornet playing in addition to brass band. Regarding fighting mouthpieces, for me the Sovereign is an example of this. I could only get my previous Sovereign to really work for me with mouthpieces with a larger throat and backbore, and ultimately only really liked it with a Denis Wick mouthipece.
I can't fault the Yamaha xeno/neo series cornets for getting the job done, but they're a bit... Vanilla? Underappreciated yet unexciting, impossible to hate yet not easy to love... Or maybe that's just me...
I think that it is a perfectly valid opinion. It think that it is also a case of what is important to the player. My Yamaha Xeno cornet is my primary horn, and the one on which I do all my home practice. We have therefore become firm friends, and everything about this cornet is very familiar. As you say, it gets the job done, it plays well, I find it more flexible and looser slotting that the Sovereign, it is more accepting of tighter mouthpieces, which I prefer especially for non brass band applications, it is less mouthpiece sensitive I feel overall than the Sovereign, it has excellent valves, reasonable intonation, and I find it easier to switch to from trumpet, which is a consideration considering that in addition to being very much a cornet/trumpet doubler (I have a rehearsal and four gigs coming up in the space of three days, in which I alternate, cornet, trumpet, cornet, trumpet, cornet), I alternate between trumpet predominantly and cornet in my community light orchestra rehearsals. Yes, the only negative side is that the sound is a little vanilla. I can live with that.
I'll have to try an Eclipse one day.
Take care
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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derby_mute
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 343
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| giakara wrote: | Getzen 800S large bore is the standard in the music business the last 50 years.
Regards |
It's not the standard for me and for many others. Popular for some perhaps, but there are many different cornets made during the last 50 years that are great playing horns. Some of my favorites during those 50 years are the Benge long model cornet; Selmer k-mod; Blessing Artist; King Master and Silver Sonic, etc. I had a Getzen Eterna in the 1970s and sold it for a King Silver Sonic.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model |
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