There are some....interesting comments in this thread. I'm going to echo what John Mohan said - yes, you are being too hard on yourself and it's going to take some time to develop to a place where your range and endurance are better.
I'm also going to go against the grain and tell you that a teacher is not absolutely necessary, provided you don't have some fundamental chops problems that need to be fixed. Since you say you can play a B above the staff with good sound and control and you are only 4 months into a comeback, that indicates to me that your embouchure is pretty normal.
I'm also going to touch on another thought - in general I think comebackers are WAY too hard on themselves, and that they often push themselves too hard, too fast, and might have some unrealistic expectations.
Stop for a second and think back to your formative years on a brass instrument. How long had you been at it before you reached a level where you were able to actually play something outside of normal graded (2/3) school material and have it sound polished? I really didn't get to that point until I was an 11th grader, and by then I was in my 7th year of playing and chops development. You've been back 4 months and you are doing the 2nd movement of the Haydn - something I didn't initially play and perform until 12th grade.
So, like John says, stick with it - your chops will develop, both in strength and focus, but it's going to take time, practice and patience.
On a side note, taking lessons could definitely be beneficial, but not absolutely necessary - at the end of the day, you're the one who is going to put in the time and work, but a teacher can help streamline things and make you aware of things you might be doing that you are not able to discern yourself.
Thanks for your comments. What you say makes a lot of sense. I'm not 100% sold on the need for professional instruction yet. Thanks to this reality check, I think I now have a pretty good idea where I am and what I need to do. I just need to be more patient. Cheers. _________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Introducing logic into the analysis we might ask the o/p which mouthpiece he uses?
The ability to have good endurance in the upper register is conditional, at least in part to how much effort is required to play the upper register to begin with. When the mouthpiece is overly large, deep, and has sharp edges, particularly the inner rim "bite"?
It's usually just asking for trouble. Much of the benefits in tone production which trumpet players typically seek in larger pieces can be obtained on medium and even shallow pieces. Just so long as the back bore and even second cup can be altered..
Thus? There's just no need to kill yourself guys! There are enough martyrs playing trumpet as it is. You'll note those using the described large, sharp edged pieces by the following characteristics,
Most notable and permanent ring on upper lip. Even days after playing the trumpet.
Plays 3rd cornet parts almost exclusively.
Thanks for your question. Although my chops are essentially 4 months old, I feel comfortable enough to tackle some simple hymns (and all verses) with no fancy stuff/runs in a solo setting. Having said that, yeah, I stay away from the deeper/wider cups. I use a Denis Wick S for the mellower stuff (even though the DW-S is already the sharpest/brightest of the DW cornet mouth pieces) if I'm playing solo on front of an organ. If I'm playing in front of an organ and a full choir, I'll need something more cutting. I'll use the stock mouthpiece (a Bach 7C) or even a Bach 7DW.
On the issue of ease of upper register, yes the 7DW probably gives me an extra 1.5 tones; but I don't rely on the 7DW. I'd say I use the DW-S 60% of the time, 7C 30% of the time, and the 7DW at most 10% of the time. All my practices are spent on the DW-S.
Thanks for asking!
Cheers,
Andrew _________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Last edited by ajwan on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think your original post sounds pretty good for 4 months. Endurance and range are limiting factors for all trumpet players, professionals included. Range is a tricky subject, but the easiest and best ways I've found for increasing endurance are:
1) Play in more frequent but shorter practice sessions. If you can practice 1-2 hours spread throughout the day in 20 minute chunks, you will accomplish a lot more than the same amount of time all in one stretch. Maintaining fresh, responsive chops is a key component of efficiency.
2) Don't kill yourself with the fundamentals. Playing 90 high D#'s is going to do what for you exactly? Instead, practice music with the same attention to detail you give your "technique" practice. It's the same 12 notes. Might as well spend your time learning how to play music that actually interests you.
Thanks for this. I agree. I feel I get the most from shorter sessions rather than 1 long session. But alas, probably at most 45 mins total per day given I have a day job and home/family life! I do what I can. _________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Joined: 17 Jul 2016 Posts: 180 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: Thoughts
I'm exactly one year ahead of you after a 30 year break and have some thoughts based on personal experience and lessons from a couple pros.
Rest as much as you play. This is redundant with many comments here but I didn't interpret this correctly. Play a slur, or a short passage, or a long tone, then rest the equivalent time of what you just played. Repeat. I didn't do this correctly as I would play an exercise until exhaustion then rest. Not the same thing.
Go hard every OTHER day, not every day. You do need to recover. I play every day, but I don't push it hard every day.
Start higher earlier and more often. I try to hit the higher slurs, scales and chromatics first thing (after long tones). Or at least well before I'm toast.
Take the horn off the face frequently, I think this was mentioned. You've got to get that blood flow back.
I'm not a pro, but I'm excited about where I'm at...
People always say the same thing while giving advice. Lip flexibility, slurs, arpeggios, long tones....then you hear mouthpiece buzzing ,long tones (yawn) then more fringe guys get into leadpipe buzzing, pencil exercises, P.E.T.E
But nobody talks about articulating. Lots of rapid articulations slightly below and above the end of your range.
If a high B is it, try playing 50-75 Gs, G#s, As, Bbs, Bs and Cs ...then up those numbers to maybe 100-150
Try doing repeated 16th notes in chromatics around those same areas. The more you play those notes, the more you develop the muscle memory...not strength...to remember HOW to play those new notes.
Play simple melodies around the end of your range (and everywhere else) but TONGUE the notes. Don't just slur or sit on the notes. Lots and lots and lots of repetitions.
When you are articulating notes, you'll realize you aren't breathing as much as you thought you needed too and won't be wasting energy, and you'll be teaching yourself to relax more and not overblow.
Once you can tongue and really own those notes and know where they sit and feel, sustaining them is much easier.
If you get bored incorporate scales you are not as strong with, or melodies, or work on transposing while using articulation exercises.
It's what worked for me, and I've seen work for others. Try everything, take the good and leave the rest....but everybody seems to overlook the importance of articulating to build and increase range and endurance
The end
this is exactly what i need to do more off, playing gigs infrequently has made me lazy when it comes to articulation. I end up TA-HAing alot of stuff towards the end of long Bar gigs. No more! Will be adding more tonguing to my routine starting today, this way when i play shake your body for the Bazillioneth time every note will be tight and crisp like the old days!!
People always say the same thing while giving advice. Lip flexibility, slurs, arpeggios, long tones....then you hear mouthpiece buzzing ,long tones (yawn) then more fringe guys get into leadpipe buzzing, pencil exercises, P.E.T.E
But nobody talks about articulating. Lots of rapid articulations slightly below and above the end of your range.
If a high B is it, try playing 50-75 Gs, G#s, As, Bbs, Bs and Cs ...then up those numbers to maybe 100-150
Try doing repeated 16th notes in chromatics around those same areas. The more you play those notes, the more you develop the muscle memory...not strength...to remember HOW to play those new notes.
Play simple melodies around the end of your range (and everywhere else) but TONGUE the notes. Don't just slur or sit on the notes. Lots and lots and lots of repetitions.
When you are articulating notes, you'll realize you aren't breathing as much as you thought you needed too and won't be wasting energy, and you'll be teaching yourself to relax more and not overblow.
Once you can tongue and really own those notes and know where they sit and feel, sustaining them is much easier.
If you get bored incorporate scales you are not as strong with, or melodies, or work on transposing while using articulation exercises.
It's what worked for me, and I've seen work for others. Try everything, take the good and leave the rest....but everybody seems to overlook the importance of articulating to build and increase range and endurance
The end
this is exactly what i need to do more off, playing gigs infrequently has made me lazy when it comes to articulation. I end up TA-HAing alot of stuff towards the end of long Bar gigs. No more! Will be adding more tonguing to my routine starting today, this way when i play shake your body for the Bazillioneth time every note will be tight and crisp like the old days!!
thanks benge for the reminder !!!
regards,
tom
Heck yeah Tom!!
Gotta have a snappy tongue for all that stuff. Like those sixteenth notes on the repeats in September (can we have ONE top 40 job with out playing that tune??)
A few years back I started recording all my jobs and was devastated by how lazy my articulation got. I stopped focusing on cut offs, and was slurring stuff that should have been tongued and "hooing " notes that should have had more pop at the start and stop of the note.
I think I was getting lazy because I was playing the same pop tunes also for the trillionth time and just got bored and apathetic. Now even when bored I focus and aim for perfection with articulation to match the snap the reed player has.
And a good side effect from articulating more is much improved intonation. I don't play nearly as sharp as I used to. I think it's because I don't overblow and have such a wide open air stream. My main tuning slide is pushed in much further than it used to be and those pesky flat notes aren't nearly as low,on the pitch.
You hit the nail on the head again, i've wandered in and out of some sharpness lately as well, just plain laziness on my part. Just going to put the time in, thats the way it is, no shortcuts here. thanks for some good reminders !!
You hit the nail on the head again, i've wandered in and out of some sharpness lately as well, just plain laziness on my part. Just going to put the time in, thats the way it is, no shortcuts here. thanks for some good reminders !!
regards,
Tom
Hey T
I also learned the "tape doesn't lie"
The worst is when I thought to myself "ooohhhh I'm going to take this line up an octave...or this would sound awesome with a high A at the end of the tune!!!"
Then I'd listen to what I played and sometimes cringe and think " WHY did I make that choice....or that just sounds stupid...or that was so inappropriate " etc
Self restraint has also made me a better player. Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should or have to. I now reserve those high notes for only super select spots. If I overuse them, they get stale, if used sparingly they can create some extra excitement.
It's nice not to get those head turns,and eye rolls from the guys in the band when playing so many silly obligatory high notes. But when I stick a good one at the right time, I get a smile and a nod instead
You hit the nail on the head again, i've wandered in and out of some sharpness lately as well, just plain laziness on my part. Just going to put the time in, thats the way it is, no shortcuts here. thanks for some good reminders !!
regards,
Tom
Hey T
I also learned the "tape doesn't lie"
The worst is when I thought to myself "ooohhhh I'm going to take this line up an octave...or this would sound awesome with a high A at the end of the tune!!!"
Then I'd listen to what I played and sometimes cringe and think " WHY did I make that choice....or that just sounds stupid...or that was so inappropriate " etc
Self restraint has also made me a better player. Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should or have to. I now reserve those high notes for only super select spots. If I overuse them, they get stale, if used sparingly they can create some extra excitement.
It's nice not to get those head turns,and eye rolls from the guys in the band when playing so many silly obligatory high notes. But when I stick a good one at the right time, I get a smile and a nod instead
Very True !! Can't replace accuracy and quality of sound !
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Re: I Need a Reality Check - Range and Endurance
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
That said, there are exercises intended to develop this, such as the Caruso Calisthenics exercises.
You will teach yourself bad habits if you practice this way, specifically, you'll begin to use mouthpiece pressure to change pitch because your musculature is either tired, or unable to work properly because the mouthpiece has 'sunk into the face'. As a s single exercise in a routine, with plenty of rest scheduled it's fine. As an approach to practicing the instrument in general, it's terrible.
FYI Caruso's time frame for proper development was about 3 years of using the routine.
Did you mean to say that playing Caruso exercises will teach bad habits?
Also, I have never heard anyone give a specific time frame on Caruso type exercises (I added the bold type to the quote). Maybe I should post this in the Caruso forum, but does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Stop for a second and think back to your formative years on a brass instrument. How long had you been at it before you reached a level where you were able to actually play something outside of normal graded (2/3) school material and have it sound polished? I really didn't get to that point until I was an 11th grader, and by then I was in my 7th year of playing and chops development. You've been back 4 months and you are doing the 2nd movement of the Haydn - something I didn't initially play and perform until 12th grade.
The thing is, the protracted development scale you're referring to isn't the way it has to be. Along with aptitude of course, it has everything to do with how much focus there is. Have you ever heard some of these Asian school bands? If not, prepare to have your mind blown. I've never heard an American high school concert band this good - they're better than a lot of college ensembles I've heard. I'm blown away by how solid their intonation is despite the large number of cornets. Listen to that kid on the high part. These are little kids. Mostly girls too. This isn't an anomaly, you can find performance after performance similar to this on Youtube. The older kids are even better. Clearly the music educators in Asia have their stuff together.
Stop for a second and think back to your formative years on a brass instrument. How long had you been at it before you reached a level where you were able to actually play something outside of normal graded (2/3) school material and have it sound polished? I really didn't get to that point until I was an 11th grader, and by then I was in my 7th year of playing and chops development. You've been back 4 months and you are doing the 2nd movement of the Haydn - something I didn't initially play and perform until 12th grade.
The thing is, the protracted development scale you're referring to isn't the way it has to be. Along with aptitude of course, it has everything to do with how much focus there is. Have you ever heard some of these Asian school bands? If not, prepare to have your mind blown. I've never heard an American high school concert band this good - they're better than a lot of college ensembles I've heard. I'm blown away by how solid their intonation is despite the large number of cornets. Listen to that kid on the high part. These are little kids. Mostly girls too. This isn't an anomaly, you can find performance after performance similar to this on Youtube. The older kids are even better. Clearly the music educators in Asia have their stuff together.
That's amazing! Check out those tiny kids on those huge tubas!!
Yep clearly the Asian mentality and work ethic differs vastly from the American. Dedication to education, personal achievement, merit and competition are no longer at the top of the list of needs or goals for Americans any longer.
That's amazing! Check out those tiny kids on those huge tubas!!
Yup. If you had only heard the audio without knowing who was playing, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have guessed you were hearing a bunch of 8-12 yo's. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
I will add one more remark about your goal of wanting to play a whole song through: check out that middle section of the Arban's book - The Art of Phrasing. It's got a bunch of really nice, shorter melodies to play. Focus on getting 1 really solid each week. Or, practice sight reading 3-4 in a row. Lots of fun to be had.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: I Need a Reality Check - Range and Endurance
Back for a status update.
I've joined a community band that plays for a couple hours every wednesdays. I've been attending since late September and I play the 3rd part typically.
I play with a Dennis Wick 4B pretty much all the time nowadays and practice 30 mins everyday (that's all the time I have with two kids!).
To date, my effective range remains the same (consistently to the B above the treble staff (with decent tone and control)), maybe to a C on a good day. It hasn't change a whole lot as you can see. I'm not so concerned about this at all. No biggie.
Endurance is a bit of a challenge. I can definitely say it's improved since my original post back in April.
I find about 1.25 hours or so into the band practice, my endurance starts to get shorter and shorter after playing typical 3rd cornet parts (including conductor stoppages, bar rests, etc.), give or take depending on the amount of material above the third space C on the staff.
Is this OK at my stage of recovery as a come-back player, having playing/practicing consistently for 10 months now? Just looking for a reality check from the more experienced out there. Will it get better?
Cheers,
Andrew
ajwan wrote:
Hi all,
I'm in need of a reality check.
I'm a come back player after 22 years in hiatus. Originally a French horn player in highschool (but always a closet cornet player), I've switched to the Bb cornet and I've been practicing daily for a minimum of 30 mins everyday since the first week of January of this year (cant play more than that as I have a day job and a home life). So effectively my embouchure is only 4 months old.
So far my effective range is consistently to the B above the treble staff (with decent tone and control). Problem is my endurance. For example, after a decent warm up, I can play the second movement of Haydn's Trumpet Concerto (Eb) (with two runs to a Bb above the staff) maybe twice on a good day and that's it! Mind you, there are breaks in the song to rest briefly.
I'm a bit frustrated that my endurance in the upper parts of my current range is short. My goal is to be able to play a song with no breaks. For example, two verses of the Christmas song "O Holy Night" (which has no rests), and have enough in the tank for a decent pause on the Bb above the staff at the end of the song. No fancy runs or variations, just as it is and focusing on intonation/quality.
How am I doing after 4 months? Am I being impatient and too hard on myself? Can I do better? How long until I reach my immediate goal given my current practice regimen (5 mins warm ups, melodies 15 mins, range exercises 10 mins)? Am I being realistic?
I'd greatly appreciate some opinions on this.
Cheers,
Andrew
_________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Last edited by ajwan on Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 17 Jul 2016 Posts: 180 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject:
I'm about a year a head of you, and find myself largely in the same boat. I can hit a D over high C, but not in a playing situation YET. To extend range, I'm just trying to play more music above the staff, whenever possible.
On endurance, when I'm tight on time I'll do a Caruso method, and I'm recently now adding in constant-set-14-intermediate slurs by Dimartino that's taking Caruso up a level. I'm doing these to mimic keeping the horn on the face longer as I don't get enough gigs to really see how long I can play. My quarterly brass group at church is pushing me to the limit (when I play), but I"m MUCH stronger now after only 4-6 months of adding these into my sessions. It's now getting to where I find I have more endurance if a have a longer practice session, then play hours later, ideally with a 1/2 days rest.
Also, I'm getting more value by going light the day before I play for an extended time.
So you're at the D over the high C, above the staff?
OK, good stuff. Also good advice on playing the high stuff every other day.
I'm just a little worried as I recall back in high school struggling with endurance issues on the french horn. Back then however, I only practiced when the highschool band actually played, which was 1 hour, 3 days/week.
Nowadays, I practice much more diligently (30mins/day + 2 hour band practice/week).
Cheers,
Andrew
vwag wrote:
I'm about a year a head of you, and find myself largely in the same boat. I can hit a D over high C, but not in a playing situation YET. To extend range, I'm just trying to play more music above the staff, whenever possible.
On endurance, when I'm tight on time I'll do a Caruso method, and I'm recently now adding in constant-set-14-intermediate slurs by Dimartino that's taking Caruso up a level. I'm doing these to mimic keeping the horn on the face longer as I don't get enough gigs to really see how long I can play. My quarterly brass group at church is pushing me to the limit (when I play), but I"m MUCH stronger now after only 4-6 months of adding these into my sessions. It's now getting to where I find I have more endurance if a have a longer practice session, then play hours later, ideally with a 1/2 days rest.
Also, I'm getting more value by trying to really hit the chops hard every OTHER day, not every day; which means the day before your weekly band practice, only do some light playing.
_________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts
Just saw your previous post! LOl, good to cross-check with other members in the same situation as I'm in! Do you recall what your playing ability was when you wrote this a few months back?
vwag wrote:
I'm exactly one year ahead of you after a 30 year break and have some thoughts based on personal experience and lessons from a couple pros.
Rest as much as you play. This is redundant with many comments here but I didn't interpret this correctly. Play a slur, or a short passage, or a long tone, then rest the equivalent time of what you just played. Repeat. I didn't do this correctly as I would play an exercise until exhaustion then rest. Not the same thing.
Go hard every OTHER day, not every day. You do need to recover. I play every day, but I don't push it hard every day.
Start higher earlier and more often. I try to hit the higher slurs, scales and chromatics first thing (after long tones). Or at least well before I'm toast.
Take the horn off the face frequently, I think this was mentioned. You've got to get that blood flow back.
I'm not a pro, but I'm excited about where I'm at...
_________________ Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject:
Endurance in the upper register is limited probably because you're using excessive arm pressure to achieve it. This is an almost universal issue. The trick is to find exercises and the proper approach to them that allow you to reduce the dependency on arm pressure. Try and focus on playing up near the top of your range and try to make it happen with air, lips, tongue, pivot,...anything that reduces arm pressure. And as counterintuitive as it may sound, playing softly (without excess arm pressure) can really help perfect the embouchure. Loud and hard playing seems an attractive approach to range but it often ends up working against you. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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