Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 419 Location: Vienna, Austria
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: How to play fast!
I am trying to work on improving my fast playing and would appreciate any tips from those of you who can do it well.
Here are a few specific things I've been thinking about:
1. Articulation
When I attempt to play fast, it begins to sound messy. I think it is partly because I tend not to articulate clearly at quick tempos.
I once asked James Morrison at a clinic about this and he said that he single tongues everything he plays - he even lightly tongues on slurred passages. I asked if he doodle tongues on the extremely fast stuff, but even there he said he still single tongues. This is incredible considering how fast he plays. Some other players such as Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro seem to do this too as I have noticed that I can transcribe even their fast tunes fairly easily because the notes are so clearly defined.
Is it possible for a mere mortal to achieve such a quick single tongue? (I think Morrison told me he was always able to do this - sadly my natural tonguing speed is much slower). Others seem to advocate either doodle tonguing or "jazz articulation" (i.e. tonguing the upbeats in a string of 8th notes). Any thoughts?
2. Use of slow playing
I've often heard and read that the best way to acquire the ability to play fast is to practise excessively slow, but with perfect timing and quick valve changes. I suspect that part of the trick is getting the timing between fingers, tongue and lips very precise. It should also help with rhythmic accuracy, which seems to break down for me a bit when I am trying to play beyond my ability.
This does sound reasonable, but I presume at some point, you do need to practise fairly intensely at fast tempos too, perhaps even faster than you intend playing.
Would those of you who can play fast agree with this? Are there any other techniques?
3. Improvising over fast changes
Because I can't play that fast, my improvisation over fast tunes tends to involve a lot of quarter notes, with a few short bursts now and then. If I try to insert anything to complex I mess it up. I am amazed at players who seem to be able to be able to create meaningful long 8th note lines at 350+ bpm. How is this possible? It's certainly not possible to think much as the chords of Cherokee or Giants Steps are whizzing past.
4. Any other factors?
Is there anything else that can aid playing fast? E.g. how you hold the trumpet, how you depress and release the valves, etc. I presume that the elimination of tension and any excessive movement is required. I've often marvelled at how players of any instrument who can play fast make it look effortless and how their fingers don't really seem to move that fast.
Thanks,
Rob _________________ Schagerl Sig. James Morrison
Selmer Paris Chorus 80J
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject:
IMO- one must be able to imagine one's self being able to play whatever is being attempted. I've taught many that couldn't at first and some who never got a clue. For example- if you can't sing the part as fast as you want to play it you're probably going to have a heck of a time getting there. Good luck.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject:
Work on improving embouchure response. Then you won't have to use a hard, explosive attack to start each note. This will make it easier to articulate faster. Breath attacks ("hoo" and "poo") and sound production exercises (Franquin, Shuebruk, Daniel) improve embouchure response. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Last edited by dstdenis on Sat May 06, 2017 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 419 Location: Vienna, Austria
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the responses. In particular, embouchure response is something I hadn't thought about.
Just now I chanced upon this incredible video tutorial of Dominick Farinacci on the slow playing approach to fast playing using the example of Clifford Brown's solo on Cherokee. Dominick also has quite a few other videos worth checking out. His technique is amazing.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject:
Craig Swartz wrote:
IMO- one must be able to imagine one's self being able to play whatever is being attempted. I've taught many that couldn't at first and some who never got a clue. For example- if you can't sing the part as fast as you want to play it you're probably going to have a heck of a time getting there. Good luck.
This is almost verbatim Bill Adam.
Damn Craig; maybe you do know something. _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:46 pm Post subject:
Billy B wrote:
Craig Swartz wrote:
IMO- one must be able to imagine one's self being able to play whatever is being attempted. I've taught many that couldn't at first and some who never got a clue. For example- if you can't sing the part as fast as you want to play it you're probably going to have a heck of a time getting there. Good luck.
This is almost verbatim Bill Adam.
Damn Craig; maybe you do know something.
Shhhhhhhhh!!! Don't let anyone around here know that... Besides, I worked for DMPS- how smart could someone be to do that???
I think that's officially known as the Freddie Hubbard Method. _________________ 1919 King Liberty
1923 Conn 22B
1955 Selmer 24A (Balanced Action)
1981 LA Benge ML #3 bell
1938 Couesnon Flugel
1907 HN White Co. "King" Cornet
1977 Selmer Picc
To play fast you must practice slowly the way you play fast. If the conception or technique changes when moving from slow to fast, our fast playing will always be limited and ragged due the lack of slow practice on our fast technique.
Watch the transition in strokes below. I think a lot of us practice our articulations exactly like that.
Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: Re: How to play fast!
beagle wrote:
I once asked James Morrison at a clinic about this and he said that he single tongues everything he plays - he even lightly tongues on slurred passages. I asked if he doodle tongues on the extremely fast stuff, but even there he said he still single tongues. This is incredible considering how fast he plays. Some other players such as Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro seem to do this too as I have noticed that I can transcribe even their fast tunes fairly easily because the notes are so clearly defined.
I can almost guarantee that if he is tonguing on fast (seemingly slurred) passages, his tongue is really more 'flicking the air stream' than actual 'da da da-ing'. As in little to no contact between the tongue and wherever in his mouth he articulates... It's more like 'la la la' than 'da da da'. Maybe experiment with starting there and then increase the the amount of attack/separation as needed?
Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: How to play fast!
You are on the right track and are asking all the right questions.
Remember to always simplify when something seems too difficult or beyond ones ability.
Practice slowly and softly.
Slow = fast.
Soft = musical.
Learn to play more intuitively than what you have practiced. Intuitive playing opens everything up and allows for the great music to manifest. Forget the chords and play the sound through intuition like Miles Davis. The sound will tell you what to play and it will also show you how to play fast if you learn to trust the sound through intuition.
Remember this, great fast playing is really the same as great slower playing just sped up. But you must remember to always give full and complete musical value to all notes and that is what separates the good from the great from the legend. The mistake many players make is they do not adjust the length of notes with the tempo and they do not give full and appropriate musical value to the notes and it sounds like it.
Listen only to the masters of this kind of playing. Chet Baker is one of the greatest at playing fast because there is no loss of quality when he plays faster and he adjusts for the shorter length of notes as you increase tempo. A player must always give full musical value to all notes even when playing slower. You would be surprised at how many players rush through their music because they are thinking about the next line they are going to play instead of being in the moment and taking one's time telling their own story and musical journey.
Miles Davis is a master at playing fast. Listen to Miles articulation and "pop" he gets on the notes, that is the way to play fast. Clifford Brown is the master of varied articulation and nuance. Clark Terry is the master of music he was really a perfect player if there ever was one. Every time Clark Terry played he was giving a master class on how to play. Clark loved the doodle tongue.
beagle wrote:
I am trying to work on improving my fast playing and would appreciate any tips from those of you who can do it well.
Here are a few specific things I've been thinking about:
1. Articulation
When I attempt to play fast, it begins to sound messy. I think it is partly because I tend not to articulate clearly at quick tempos.
I once asked James Morrison at a clinic about this and he said that he single tongues everything he plays - he even lightly tongues on slurred passages. I asked if he doodle tongues on the extremely fast stuff, but even there he said he still single tongues. This is incredible considering how fast he plays. Some other players such as Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro seem to do this too as I have noticed that I can transcribe even their fast tunes fairly easily because the notes are so clearly defined.
Is it possible for a mere mortal to achieve such a quick single tongue? (I think Morrison told me he was always able to do this - sadly my natural tonguing speed is much slower). Others seem to advocate either doodle tonguing or "jazz articulation" (i.e. tonguing the upbeats in a string of 8th notes). Any thoughts?
2. Use of slow playing
I've often heard and read that the best way to acquire the ability to play fast is to practise excessively slow, but with perfect timing and quick valve changes. I suspect that part of the trick is getting the timing between fingers, tongue and lips very precise. It should also help with rhythmic accuracy, which seems to break down for me a bit when I am trying to play beyond my ability.
This does sound reasonable, but I presume at some point, you do need to practise fairly intensely at fast tempos too, perhaps even faster than you intend playing.
Would those of you who can play fast agree with this? Are there any other techniques?
3. Improvising over fast changes
Because I can't play that fast, my improvisation over fast tunes tends to involve a lot of quarter notes, with a few short bursts now and then. If I try to insert anything to complex I mess it up. I am amazed at players who seem to be able to be able to create meaningful long 8th note lines at 350+ bpm. How is this possible? It's certainly not possible to think much as the chords of Cherokee or Giants Steps are whizzing past.
4. Any other factors?
Is there anything else that can aid playing fast? E.g. how you hold the trumpet, how you depress and release the valves, etc. I presume that the elimination of tension and any excessive movement is required. I've often marvelled at how players of any instrument who can play fast make it look effortless and how their fingers don't really seem to move that fast.
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: Re: How to play fast!
Arjuna wrote:
You are on the right track and are asking all the right questions.....
Practice slowly and softly.
Slow = fast.
Soft = musical.
How about some advice for those of us who want to strike a happy medium; who don't want to play slow, necessarily, nor fast, but sort of half-fast....? _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A
Work on improving embouchure response. Then you won't have to use a hard, explosive attack to start each note. This will make it easier to articulate faster. Breath attacks ("hoo" and "poo") and sound production exercises (Franquin, Shuebruk, Daniel) improve embouchure response.
IMO- one must be able to imagine one's self being able to play whatever is being attempted. I've taught many that couldn't at first and some who never got a clue. For example- if you can't sing the part as fast as you want to play it you're probably going to have a heck of a time getting there. Good luck.
A player must be true to what they really hear. If you can hear it and sing or scat sing it then you can learn to put that music on your horn. If you can't hear it sing or scat sing it you cannot play it and it is not meant for you to understand and manifest. Many players will make the mistake of practicing something they think will impress the audience or their peers without it being what they really have going on inside their head. Be honest and true to your music and be yourself.
Listen to the highest masters of music absorbing everything you can understand. Internalize their music and experience the why the greats play what they played. It's not only the note choices it's the why they played what they played. Fast playing and all playing is the same just one is fast and one is slower, but it's all music. Think music always.
Get onstage night after night with a monster keyboardist or guitarist and you will get real fast Fast. Then at some point in time you may realize you don't want to play fast or when you play fast you don't even know it. It just happened. All the aforementioned probably happens in a 25 year timespan for most players if ever.
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:02 am Post subject:
A very humble suggestion from little more than a trumpet owner.
What helps me is to use a metronome, and to have a chest full of air. I endeavour to "attack" the notes with air, or overcome them. If you listen to Dizzy blaze through one of his runs, he's firehosing those notes into submission, and hammering the pistons down too. You have to show those sixteenth notes who's boss. And I stay on a particular speed until I'm comfortable that I can play the passage well. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 419 Location: Vienna, Austria
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject:
Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement (though I think I prefer the Harry James approach to the Rick James approach!)
I found the Vic Firth drumming video very interesting. His point for drummers was that you should try to play the same way at slow speeds that you do at high speeds or else there is an audible change between the two techniques. For trumpeters I can see this might equate to have an articulation method that can be used at all tempos. Of course for us this also goes for range, and keeping a consistent embouchure over the entire range.
I also agree with Arjuna about sound and that both Chet and Miles were very good fast players, even though they are perhaps less known for this. Particularly later in his life, Chet Baker played very lyrically at all tempos. There is an album where he plays Cherokee with minimal accompaniment. It is fast, but does not feel it. His playing, like his singing always sounded relaxed, as well as being mournful and fragile - very much mirroring his own life.
Although it hasn't been mentioned till now, having an efficient embouchure is almost certainly a factor in playing fast too. I am sure that some types of embouchure probably make switching between notes at speed difficult. I found some great tips in Charlie Porter's recent post on TH about embouchure (http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=143560). I've never thought too much about my embouchure as it is something I thought I had figured out. His video is the first time I have seen anything to do with embouchure explained with a minimum of pseudo-science and some really plausible explanation of how the embouchure functions. I've even been searching round the house for a good pair of scissors to use as a mouthpiece visualiser!
Finally though, I really wanted to mention some very nice things from the Dominick Farinacci video I posted earlier. One somewhat strange one is to try learning tricky passages with the left hand, as well as trying the passage in a harder key. This is supposed to get your brain working in different ways. I remember reading this in John McNeil's book "The Art of Jazz Trumpet" too. Dominick also suggests trying different articulations. Playing the fast piece as a ballad, and middle tempo tune. Dominick also has a great video about ghost notes that also has relevance for fast playing.
I've now been inspired to start transcribing Clifford Brown's Cherokee solo and challenge myself to play it up to speed. Clifford's articulation is so clean that it's actually quite easy to hear what's going on, even at 350 bpm so I don't think the transcription work will be too hard, but I wonder whether I'll ever be able to play it up to speed. _________________ Schagerl Sig. James Morrison
Selmer Paris Chorus 80J
Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: How to play fast!
Arjuna wrote:
Remember this, great fast playing is really the same as great slower playing just sped up.
I just wanted to say that we need to be careful because this is true from a musical point of view, but not necessarily from a neuromuscular point of view. Not to say slow practice isn't totally necessary and important, but if there is any body or mental tension involved in the slow practice, when you speed it up, you will get increasingly tense and you can hit a wall well before you get to the speed you are aiming for.
From a mechanical point of view, it is often better to move very quickly and freely without precision and control initially (and briefly) to get the feel for the fast movement, then to slow that down to gain the precision and control you need as it means you are playing slowly how your body moves quickly.
Lots of great advice already - just to reiterate - soft and slow will be your guide to developing the correct technique for fast playing.
Soft playing develops embouchure response - so you don't need to kick the start of each note with the tongue.
Slow playing allows you to iron out any imperfections in the sound production with the tongue so that you become very efficient with the tongue movements.
Gerard Presencer talks about developing a 'super legato' tongue, where there is hardly any gap between adjacent notes. You can work on this by alternating slurred with super legato and try and get them sounding almost identical. Its harder than you think at first, but worth persevering as you will develop a very soft but fast tongue flick, which is what will allow you to articulate at fast speeds. I highly recommend you get his book 'Modern approach to trumpet playing' as there is lots of good advice and progressively more challenging exercises in there. He also advocates the 'yadayada' jazz articulation for higher speeds - not only for speed but it also buts the accents in the right place for jazz ie. off the beat!
Good luck - its fun when you can do it, but like all skills takes time to develop!
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