Trumpet Embouchure Demystfied! Four Step Setup Method

dstdenis · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 6:28 am Post subject:

Interesting discussion. When I saw this video, I thought it might not be long before the sparks would fly. I think some of the differences of opinion might be rooted in how Mr. Porter's instructions are interpreted, and other differences might be due to differences in facial structure. Maybe.

For example, step 2, pressing the visualizer, or rim, against the lips. Porter said to press hard enough that there's a seal all the way around so air won't leak and so the lips are held in place. But no harder. Don't press so hard that it hurts. At all.

So when I do this step, I don't press very hard--just hard enough to seal and hold the lips in place. I haven't felt any pain, and my lips haven't felt shot by using this approach. So two different people might interpret this step differently, and one might be pressing harder than the other.

As far as facial structure, I have a large face and thicker, fleshy lips. Maybe that means I can press a visualizer or mouthpiece against them and don't have to worry about pain or shot lips. How would this approach work for me if I had small, thin lips? Maybe I'd have to be extra cautious with the pressure? I don't know.

The biggest win for me from watching this video is Porter's emphasis on playing with an aperture that's open enough to avoid garbage in the tone from the lips rubbing, either during initial sound production or while holding a note. I sometimes get that, especially as I get tired, and yet I've been getting almost none of that since I started experimenting with this approach a few days ago. I was so happy, I sent Charlie ten bucks just for that.

I also practice Franquin's sound production exercises and long tones every day and have been making gradual progress with it. But wow, I made a big jump forward with consistency and reliability of sound production and aperture control as soon as I started using Porter's approach with these drills.

I think Jeanne Poicius gave good advice in her book, Trumpeting by Nature. She recommended trying new ideas three times to give them a fair chance to work. Take what works for you and leave the rest.
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kalijah · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 6:37 am Post subject:

pepperdean · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:52 am Post subject:

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the pushing-the-lips-together and pulling-them-out description but I do think the discussion highlights the important issue of setting up the embouchure with the 'appropriate' togetherness of the lips. Some students are so open they don't have a chance; many students, though, have chops that are so tight prior to the initial attack that their tone and flexibility are inhibited.

Carmine Caruso spoke of optimal embouchure action being governed by the autonomic nervous system - reflexes. I frequently use his analogy of a young child reaching out toward something hot and quickly withdrawing the hand. The body knew what to do; no teaching and construction of a response was needed. Based on this idea, bringing the mouthpiece into light contact with lips that are together ( as they might be at any other time during the day) and beginning the attack, for whatever note and volume you intend to play, the embouchure actions - lips against each other, lips against the mouthpiece, etc - the embouchure will form the best possible setting for that demand. I don't intend to be too simplistic with this idea. I've seen too many advanced students carefully construct their embouchure prior to taking a breath and locking themselves into a situation where they fight their embouchure rather than just playing the horn.

One student, a very fine jazz player, told me this story: he'd been working with this concept of letting the chops respond to the demand for about two months. He returned to an ensemble he hadn't played with for awhile and, after the initial tune, the leader commented, Wow! What have you been doing. That's great.'

Again, paralysis by analysis is always lurking. I think setup often becomes a problem because we think too much about how to do it rather than allowing our body to figure it out. To use another of Carmine's examples, can you imagine trying to learn how to ride a bicycle by studying and watching videos instead of just hopping on and falling down a few times.

I have reservations about Charlie's video but this is a great discussion.

Alan

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EdMann · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject:

That my heroes are agitated at my usage makes my chops hurt.

Bert · Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 729

I sincerely believe that Charlie means well, but at the end of the video, I don't see him set up the way he explained. It looks as if he puts his mpc on much more relaxed lips without pulling the lips out of the mpc (step 3). He sounds fine that way as he sounds great on all of his video's, but I don't see him set up that way.
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razeontherock · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject:

scott@95603 · Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject:

Say what you will, but Charlie Porter’s video on forming an embouchure is right on the money, at least for me. The small adjustments I have made to my embouchure after watching his video are producing positive results. Charlie’s one video is helping me more than any private lessons I have ever taken. Questions that others have been unable to answer have now been answered...no more confusion. Cheers, and thank you, Charlie.

scott
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scottfsmith · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:41 am Post subject:

One other idea I really liked in the video is to think of the lips as your "reed", not as part of your body - everything in that circle is passive "reed", focus on controlling stuff with muscles outside the circle. This has changed my perspective on my playing, its a bit jarring to my head but the sound that comes out of my horn says its a good approach.

Charlie does take a short-cut toward the end of the video, he doesn't mention it but my impression is the technique is a good way to lock into the right positioning and once you have it you don't need to go through all the steps every time you put the horn up - just put the mouthpiece in the lip groove. I am still refining my approach so I am going through all the steps most of the time still.

I found another plus last night: I can play some big mouthpieces I have and not get tired on them. 18mm rim? For a long piece? With high notes? No problem!

Bert · Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 729

I don't think he takes a shortcut. When I see the examples he gives, Wynton, Doc, I see what he is advocating, but he himself doesn't do it that way. I watched some other video's and he just doesn't do it.

But, I am happy that it works for some people. I even can imagine it working, but to me it felt like a big step back in time when I was struggling very hard with the horn and the lips. So, not for me.
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EdMann · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:21 am Post subject:

Update: I reflected on this method and went over my notes from my old trpt teacher, Thomas (Tom) Scott, who 84 and still killing the lead book, btw, and low and behold, the same method! Start closed, give the air somewhere to go, drop jaw (lift up and down) to ascend, taut surface to play on.

I played next to him last night as I REincorporated this into my playing, and it worked, just like it did before I got sidetracked with other methods/madness. Kudos again to Charlie for making it clear and understandable, and yes, I see him doing it on every video-- less is more, btw.

ed

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razeontherock · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:41 am Post subject:

Scott Smith alludes to a useful concept: picking apart something that gives us trouble and slowing it down to perfect it, then putting it back together more quickly and in a more natural form. This pertains to nearly every aspect of so many tasks, not just playing this crazy piece of plumbing.

tim_wolf · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:12 am Post subject:

TrpPro · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject:

Learn to blow the horn. The embouchure will find its way if you let it (with good practice). The positioning and appearance of the lips, jaw, tongue, etc., will likely go thru phases and levels of development. They all must be synchronized to act as a single unit. These phases may not reflect what the mature embouchure will look or feel like (or how it will actually work) but they have to be allowed to run their course. If the brain decides (either yours or a teacher's) that something isn't working right, the body isn't given the chance to figure it out on its own. Let the body decide. It's a trial and error process which is the way many things develop. Something goes in one direction, overshoots and comes back past center ... but not as far as it was before. A pendulum winding down.

The key to "learn to blow the horn" will always be about the practice material and how it is practiced.

To start, put lips together, put lips in mouthpiece and begin. Which material and approach you use will likely play a role in how fast you are able to progress, but everyone is different and will progress at different speeds, yet everyone will still be able to all reach the same end eventually.

Benge.nut · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695

cheiden · Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:09 pm Post subject:

I disagree. I think there may be some small subset of players where their individual nature and approach will result in eventual improvement over time. But I'm going to guess that a majority of players will and do plateau with various facets of their playing not improving despite all efforts. In these cases, the embouchure will NOT find it's way without some expert help, and in some cases, maybe not even then.
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