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scott@95603
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 Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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"Learn to blow the horn. The embouchure will find its way if you let it (with good practice)."
How would this advice help a struggling trumpet player? At the very least, Charlie Porter's video gives a struggling player something to think about. "Learn to blow the horn" does nothing and teaches nothing. There is a reason good teachers are necessary in any field of study. scott
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EdMann
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Did he say just to blow? Oy veh.
Day two: even better. I owe Charlie a dinner!
Ed |
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JoseLindE4
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:30 am Post subject: |
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1. I know some fantastic players who use a similar procedure to set up as the video demonstrates. Those players and Charlie sound fantastic doing it.
2. We sure do like videos of people talking about lips. There seems to be universal hand motions that everyone has to make when talking about lips. As much fun as they are to watch, I don't think I've personally ever gotten anything out of them - although my wandering mind during Charlie's video may have solved some tension that had crept into my playing. We'll see what the morning brings.
3. I recently taught a one off lesson to a comeback player who is more "analytically minded." Even though his setup might not currently be ideal, we just worked on blowing the horn. He ended up make a few sounds that sounded like a professional player and he left with a path for reproducing that all over the horn. My guess is that if I hear him again, he'll have mostly reverted back to his old way of thinking thereby limiting his progress. As much as the lips talk and accompanying hand motions might work for Charlie, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a simpler approach, even for the struggling player.
4. Having something to think about is only helpful if the thing we're thinking about is helpful. Personally, it's hard enough to quiet my mind well enough to hear a good sound without something else to think about.
5. Charlie has a beautiful sound. His ideas are worth considering even if we disagree. |
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McVouty
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Thanks so much for posting this Charlie.
I just watched your video - tried it a few times with the visualizer and thought I'd give it a go on the trumpet.
Off the bat I was able to transition from 2nd line G to G at the top of the staff and then to double G with remarkably little effort on a 3C megatone. Normally double G is a 'best days only' note for me!
Definitely something for me to explore here - up until now I have simply formed the embouchure first and then placed the mouthpiece. Compared to the setup I get from your video, my usual embouchure feels like I'm playing much more on the red.
Need to see how it pans out in my daily playing but looking promising!
Cheers
Carl |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Watched the entire video last night and am really intrigued to try out some of the concepts.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I like his advice to firm the lips before setting the mouthpiece, but some of his instructions afterwards seem to then encourage changing the embouchure formation under the mouthpiece rim.
He seems to imply that the embouchure aperture is only an open hole between the lips while buzzing. The lip opening actually opens and closes during the vibration cycle.
I don't know where he gets his information that the vermillion is more sensitive to pressure. It's not. His logic that the best players mostly don't play on the red doesn't prove anything. Most folks are right handed, but I wouldn't instruct a left handed person to throw a ball and write with her right hand because that's how most people do it.
I think there's definitely some useful info in there, but there may be some things in there that should be reevaluated.
Dave
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McVouty
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Like others, I'm not entirely comfortable with the place the mouthpiece and manipulate the chops thing, but I have so far been able to play loudly and clearly notes which have never been in my range before - including a double B above high C. It seems that I can achieve a similar setting by anchoring the mouthpiece outside of the red of the upper lip and then pulling the lip down slightly over the teeth - this seems to bring the vibrating surface away from over the teeth where it sits naturally and I seem to spend most of my time fighting once I get above high C on my normal setting.
I need to experiment more to see how far I can use this, but a simple change in mouthpiece placement/setting seems to have made a dramatic difference to how my chops respond to the air. Definitely a lightbulb moment! |
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lipshurt
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | He seems to imply that the embouchure aperture is only an open hole between the lips while buzzing. |
I don't see him directly stating that but for some reason he leaves out how the lips close off. He does sort of show it in some of his hand gestures at 40 - 41 minutes or so in.
I'm also not so sure about the red of the lip business.
But I'm still getting new insights from forming an embouchure which has the lips further apart and then using the surrounding muscles to close it off - playing passages with large leaps at quiet volume that I could not do I can now do. I am also finally seeing how I am going to get my high range up there - I can play sustained notes above high C and can even occasionally get a sustained double high C. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | | Wilktone wrote: | | He seems to imply that the embouchure aperture is only an open hole between the lips while buzzing. |
I don't see him directly stating that but for some reason he leaves out how the lips close off. He does sort of show it in some of his hand gestures at 40 - 41 minutes or so in. |
I asked Charlie about this. He responded, "Of course the lips rapidly close and open during vibration. That's not the point...I'm not arguing that they they never close briefly, per each vibration occurring...the point is that players are often way too tight and begin with closed lips and press them together to the point of distorting the vibration."
While my preference is to approach this differently than him, I wanted to make sure that his point of view was accurately depicted here.
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Bert
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: |
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From the moment I learned to close my lips before playing and move the muscles towards the centre, my playing became much better and much more consistant. I have had some teachers advocating exactly the same things that Charlie says. Obviously these teachers delivered some excellent students, but I wasn't one of them and I practiced my ass off doing what they told me.
BTW. I was one of the best low note players. My embouchure was totally relaxed and open and I almost sounded like a trombone. As soon as I had to play above the staff everything collapsed.
I had one teacher stating that The Secret was to keep the aperture open at any cost. He was and still is a super lead player. My playing went steeply down the hill when I took lessons from him and kept to The Secret. I didn't take many lessons from this guy...
Anyway, that is where I come from. If it helps, or if it clarifies, great, I wouldn't teach it. There is so much more between open and closed, or pinching and playing with centre compression. Most people I teach or have problems play with a too open aperture. When they learn to close it and use this, their playing becomes much more efficient. Most people that play with pinched lips and too much tension in the centre are usually kids that are not playing that long. Most of them get rid of it in due time.
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| i find myself wondering what the captain would think of all this. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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This wouldn't work for me at all.
He cites Doc as someone who sets up this way - while he may have experimented with something that looked like this at one time, he didn't do it consistently throughout his career. For that matter looking at various videos on Charlie's channel it's not clear to me that he does it either.
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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+1
| TrpPro wrote: | Learn to blow the horn. The embouchure will find its way if you let it (with good practice). The positioning and appearance of the lips, jaw, tongue, etc., will likely go thru phases and levels of development. They all must be synchronized to act as a single unit. These phases may not reflect what the mature embouchure will look or feel like (or how it will actually work) but they have to be allowed to run their course. If the brain decides (either yours or a teacher's) that something isn't working right, the body isn't given the chance to figure it out on its own. Let the body decide. It's a trial and error process which is the way many things develop. Something goes in one direction, overshoots and comes back past center ... but not as far as it was before. A pendulum winding down.
The key to "learn to blow the horn" will always be about the practice material and how it is practiced.
To start, put lips together, put lips in mouthpiece and begin. Which material and approach you use will likely play a role in how fast you are able to progress, but everyone is different and will progress at different speeds, yet everyone will still be able to all reach the same end eventually. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TrpPro wrote: | | yet everyone will still be able to all reach the same end eventually. |
If only that were true.
I assume of course this is in reference to skill on the horn and not death. 
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NoNameJustMe
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| It's interesting, once his embouchure is all set up it looks very similar to that of Lynn Nicholson on the rim. Of course a vastly different approach but I wonder if there is some kind of connection. |
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rufflicks
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dstorfer
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | I disagree. I think there may be some small subset of players where their individual nature and approach will result in eventual improvement over time. But I'm going to guess that a majority of players will and do plateau with various facets of their playing not improving despite all efforts. In these cases, the embouchure will NOT find it's way without some expert help, and in some cases, maybe not even then. |
I totally agree with your disagreement!
I found myself playing golf a few years ago and I gotta say - if there is one thing that perfectly exemplifies how easily you can learn to do the absolute wrong thing by just letting your body figure it out, it's golf. The thing that feels the most comfortable is probably dead wrong. Just as there are bio-mechanically more efficient methods of attaining a quality golf shot (or baseball or even running), the same certainly applies to musical instruments - whether it's flute, clarinet, piano, guitar, or trumpet. |
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Bert
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| dstorfer wrote: | | cheiden wrote: | | I disagree. I think there may be some small subset of players where their individual nature and approach will result in eventual improvement over time. But I'm going to guess that a majority of players will and do plateau with various facets of their playing not improving despite all efforts. In these cases, the embouchure will NOT find it's way without some expert help, and in some cases, maybe not even then. |
I totally agree with your disagreement!
I found myself playing golf a few years ago and I gotta say - if there is one thing that perfectly exemplifies how easily you can learn to do the absolute wrong thing by just letting your body figure it out, it's golf. The thing that feels the most comfortable is probably dead wrong. Just as there are bio-mechanically more efficient methods of attaining a quality golf shot (or baseball or even running), the same certainly applies to musical instruments - whether it's flute, clarinet, piano, guitar, or trumpet. |
This is really interesting, and something I have been thinking about from the time I got into trouble playing the trumpet. I also agree that when you let the body decide so to speak, that that is not a guarantee for ultimate success. I have watched the full Bill Adam video and tried this. I have had some teachers working this way, but a much better result came from doing the BE routines and also other very conscious alterations in the field of mpc placement, tongue placement, breathing.
The BE exercises also rely on the natural reponse of the body, but not without very specific, non-natural exercises. Not something you come up with if you just listen to your body.
Maybe it also has to do with what is naturally expected of your body. Trumpet playing certainly does not belong to the things that a body is supposed to do, so is golf. How then, would a body be able to perform the right things? There are people that fall into a way of playing that is effortless. Other people just don't and listening to their body won't solve the problem. I had a student once, that didn't have any lesson at all. He had played for two years, ten years of age, and he could easily play high F with a big sound. No problem at all. I have never had a student since this little guy, who has been able to do this, nor have I seen someone like that. Most of them need some sort of tinkering, analysis, method to improve and get over some hurdles. Just like every trumpet player is different, so is the way to improvement.
For example: for most people, stretching the lips in a smile feels natural to play higher. Placing the mouthpiece lower to get higher, feels natural, pressing the mpc against the lips feels natural......it even gets them higher on their first attempts, it can even sound pretty or at least better than some other way, but we all know that that will be a dead end street. Maybe that is something a good teacher knows: seeing that something is not a real solution and steering a student away from that by providing a better way.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | Watched the entire video last night and am really intrigued to try out some of the concepts. |
Tried some of this out last night. When I look at Charlie's lips held by the visualizer compared to mine, mine seem much thicker. So much so that it doesn't look like I can even approximate the lip position he demonstrates.
Maybe my lips are thicker, possibly due to my current flawed approach. Maybe the lips would thin over time. Don't know. I'm still hoping that there'll be some payoff here but it's far from certain.
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