Upper lip swelling and endurance issues...

[kvothe]

Hey all,

I've had this problem for a long time now. I can play most anything I need to (i.e. up to a high concert C) nowadays... but for about twenty minutes. After that, my upper lip swells up and my range and response above the staff sort of go out the window and I have to come back a few hours later. It's still soft and everything and functional mid-range and down but it just feels like a lump rises right in the very middle and as soon as it does, half of what I can do disappears. I've got a bit of a cupid's bow, and my lips are slightly thicker/fatter than average if that makes any difference.

It's incredibly frustrating, and it feels like the second I stop being the absolute perfect practicer, I overdo it and swell up, and then I'm useless. Like an injury, except no pain or permanency. Maybe it is an injury. I can't tell.

I really don't know what to do. I have the time and desire to play this instrument, but I just don't think my body is going to cooperate.

K

K

[Bflatman]

This is the worst kind of question because it could be due to so many things.

Fatigue
Diet
allergy
Illness
Bad technique
Injury

You must see a good teacher to get to the cause and a possible fix.

As for what I suspect, it is tempting to read too much into what you have said so far, but it could be that you have been using too much pressure and if you have an overbite this excessive pressure could have injured your upper lip, and it now flares up during play.

This is just speculation and probably wrong because you have said nothing about yourself your practice your ability and your history.

You need a teacher to find out what is really going on.

[oregoncoast]

Dear kvothe

I had a similar problem. In the center of my upper lip a tender bump (not filled with liquid) would form that would distract me from practicing my instrument. The bump took overnight to dissipate.

At first I suspected excessive mouthpiece pressure, but I noticed that my upper incisors did not contact the location of the bump.

My bump became much less of a problem when I stopped rounding my lips as I ascended in pitch.

Before, when playing notes that are high for me, I would create a round opening in the center of my lips (like holding a thin drinking straw) as if saying "ooooo" ([u] in the international phonetic alphabet).

Now, I rely solely on raising my tongue to ascend, while keeping my lips in a more neutral position (upside down [m] or upside down [e] in the international phonetic alphabet).

What helped in my case were: adjusting tongue height, firming the corners of the mouth, and relaxing the lips.

For me, compressing my lips inward created an area of lateral friction (that is, a spot pushed inward from the left and right) that created a slightly painful bump. For me, the cause was not front-to-back pressure (as caused by mouthpiece pressure). My lips need to stay flatter and stretched, it seems.

Perhaps you would like to mention this possibility when you consult an expert face to face.

Thanks, and good luck,
OregonCoast

[John Mohan]

Players with the Cupid's Bow tend to need slightly bigger mouthpieces, but can play well on them and just as brightly as other players do on smaller, shallower mouthpieces. I am one of those. For normal concert band and orchestra playing I play on a Mt Vernon 3C or Mt Vernon 3C rim with a 3B underpart (the Mt Vernon 3C has a diameter about that of a modern Bach 1-1/2C). For brighter, high note playing I use a Reeves 43C (this is a mouthpiece that is about the size of a Bach 3C). This is not a mouthpiece most would consider to be a shallow, small, lead-type mouthpiece, but it is for me! Occasionally, I will go to a 43M - and that is the smallest, shallowest mouthpiece I can play well. If I try to play a 43S or God forbid, a 43ES it's sometimes hard for me to even get a tuning note after about 5 minutes of playing (with the 43ES I can't really play it at all, even when fresh), because my lips just don't fit.

On the other hand, my colleague on Disney's "Der Glöckner von Notre Dame" (Hunchback) in Berlin for two years, played that dark, orchestral-style show on a Reeves 43ES and sounded like a classical player on it. One difference between us: I have that slight Cupid's Bow and he does not.

All that said, your problem could be and probably is attributable in part if not in its entirety, to you not playing correctly. Not using your air right causes the lips to have to do more of the work and also increases mouthpiece pressure. Playing correctly, using the air correctly (meaning not just blowing harder for the high notes, but also using tongue arch correctly when ascending) reduces the level of mouthpiece pressure needed, reducing swelling and also increases endurance by taking much of the work load away from the comparatively weak and delicate lip and face muscles. Too many players rely on mouthpiece pressure to play and that causes undue swelling and endurance troubles.

A correct practice routine, practiced correctly, is the solution to your problems, along with possibly a bigger mouthpiece.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[dstdenis]

If your upper lip is swelling after 20 minutes, I wonder if you're playing nonstop, or are you resting periodically?
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[Lionel]

[gstump]

I have no idea what is going on here. And I would hesitate to speculate or offer embouchure advice on the world wide web

However, you can somewhat mitigate the impact on the upper lip by lowering your left hand position on the trumpet valve casing with the Vulcan grip or like me 4 fingers below the third valve slide. Then concentrate on applying whatever pressure you might be using to the lower lip.

Best of luck,

Gordon Stump
_________________
Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student

[Trumpetingbynurture]

What you must do is clear. You must leave the university and go chasing the wind.

---

With regards to the issue, I think once you've really bruised the lip, it will swell very quickly until it's fully healed. Sounds like you've been heavy handed, and you need a 3 days off to let things go back to factory default.

[TKSop]

I think Gordon might have it - transfer a bit more of the weight to the bottom lip (changing grip might do it subconsciously by dropping the angle a bit, protuding the jaw a bit will feel unnatural to begin with but that might help too... Heck, even an angled mouthpiece could help).

No guarantees, but might help - and probably won't hurt to try

[HERMOKIWI]

This is almost certainly an issue with excessive mouthpiece pressure on the upper lip. There have been suggestions that you transfer more of the pressure to the lower lip but that is not necessarily a good solution since you might already be using too much mouthpiece pressure on the lower lip as well.

I suggest that you devote a full practice session to playing no louder than pp and working on whisper tones as well. If you can play pp and whisper tones for an extended practice session without swelling then you've certainly diagnosed the problem: Excessive mouthpiece pressure.

Playing pp and practicing whisper tones are good ways to train yourself to play with less mouthpiece pressure.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[TKSop]

[EdMann]

You said it yourself with the words, over do it and swell up. That's pretty much it. I don't know any players who don't suffer from fatigue from over doing it. My evil is playing the wrong mouthpiece for the wrong situation, and that's why my practice sessions often result in swelling more than rehearsals or even performance! Put the rests back in your sessions.

ed

[HERMOKIWI]

[JVL]

Hello
To mpcs choices or problems, we could add thd hypothesis that you play on the red and manipulate your lips to adjust your aperture. By doing so, great chances that you use too much mpc pressure against your chops.
If this is the reason, or to verificate it, use a visualiser and set your lips and blow like you d do with your mpc.
I agree with some posters above that suggest to practice very soft, at first in low, mid register then your comfort zone, just to set the lips right and build a strong effiicient embouchure thanks to repetitions on freshness, condition for good muscle memory.

And this to associate with the right mpc for you : rim diameter, contour, cup depth and shape etc. And of course an adequat practice, in terms that John Mohan would love : what, how and when to practice
Best

[John Mohan]

[kevin_soda]

[kvothe]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think trumpetingbynurture has the right of it, this has been a rough year for me in the injury department and I think there's a lot of built up wear. I'm going to take a week or two off and reset things before anything else, and hopefully that'll resolve the issue.

k