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An isometric exercise you may find very helpful.


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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: An isometric exercise you may find very helpful. Reply with quote

Note: What follows is something that works very well for me. I do concede however that there are plenty of trumpet players who have developed good high notes without using any exercises to strengthen their embouchure at all. So this post is not for them.

This is one of the matters which makes learning the trumpet, particularly high notes so fascinating. The different ways some cats do it.

Some like pedal tones. Others like Doc Reinhardt forbid their students from practicing pedals. Ditto Roy Stevens who once told me in a letter "I do not condone playing pedals or any kind of note which distorts the embouchure". He further went on to describe pedal tones as "notes made by taking the mouthpiece partially off the mouthpiece". And he forbid his students ftom using them too. Meanwhile Arturo Sandoval plays pedals so well that I automatically drop my jaw when I see him play them on videos. He's truly an amazing fellow.

Anyway I didnt mean to digress but did want to explain that I realize that some ideas work well for some people. And sometimes they don't. The following one definitely works well FOR ME. And this is why I'm explaining it here. So I hope you'll find it useful. To me it was a godsend. Nearly as important as my mouthpiece. Here goes!

We're all familiar with the "Pencil Exercise" right? This is the one where a trumpet player takes an unsharpened pencil and places it between his lips but not between his teeth. Using the facial muscles and embouchure alone you keep the pencil held outwards at a very slight angle above 90° out from his face. Or if standing the pencil lays slightly above a line parallel to the floor. I'm certain that other, perhaps better explanations of the pencil exercise exist elsewhere upon the internet. At any rate the reason I explain it here is because my way of performing the same exercise is an adaptation of this method. Which I will explain in a moment.

My only problem with the pencil exercise was that it didnt go as far as I wanted or needed. Surely it helped my endurance. Ditto it lreduced some of my need for arm pressure. Yes plenty of what the pencil ecercised advocated truly delivered on the promise. I got more endurance on my high notes. That and the need for excessive arm pressure for most charts. Problem was?

It just didn't go far enough. Granted I had improved my upper register. That and by putting the full playing load on my facial muscles instead of just my poor lip? It was definitely a major plus. But? I just wasnt playing as high as I wanted to. In fact I did get to the point where I could pretty much hold the pencil between my lips all the way from Columbus to Cinncinnati. Pausing only for gas and food/beverage.

But I still wasnt getting enough. What to do? Well the new mouthpiece I designed just about two years ago to this very day? It too was a godsend as well but I needed more. Had to get more dog gone it... What did I need???

Being a person who likes to use logic and physics I studied the matter carefully. I'll spare you those details for now in the interest of brevity but if you want a lengthy explanation? Please write me via p/m. To request more details.

Anyway I reasoned that since a pencil held between closed lips increased my embouchure strength and in turned boosted my usable range/endurance? WHAT ABOUT USING 2 PENCILS??

I might add that I didnt use two pencils side by side in my mouth but two pencils taped together end to end. Folks this is a tremendously strenuous exercize. I would guess that most of you wont be able to sustain two pencils taped together at first. Not even for ten seconds... That you may choose to tape half a pencil to your primary pencil. And take your time! This develops an incredibly strong set of chops. By patiently taking your time this ecercise will allow you to bring your chops into a category of strength similar to that of which your hands tend to hold.

"Chops like STEELman"! NLol.

I remember an old friend and Caruso student who once told me that Caruso had said to him,

"If you needed your lips to walk? You would always be able to play high notes"

And from my experience he was 100% correct. However be advised that what Ive proposed above is not a Caruso routine. Instead its an idea of my own invention.

And again I anticipate that some trumpet players wont like this exercise. I have noticed that some outstanding high note players definitely use very little muscle strength when they blow high notes. Often they compensate by using a dry lip embouchure. Somehow and in a way that is a little tricky to explain and takes too long to describe these fortunate trumpet players can utilize a dry lip setting which can compensate for many hours of oractice time. I have seen them do this with my own eyes and ears. Cats who can lay off the horn all winter and spring. Then pull the trumpet out of the case in June and hit monster double C's. There's got to be a logical reason for this guys! I am telling you that the secret to blowing high notes is explainable in physics. The methods may be different between one trumpet player to the next but the answers are there. More on that in a second.

I might add that I didnt learn to hold two pencils in between my lips for two minutes overnight. Instead it took me a full three months to get the two pencils to stay without slipping for 70 seconds. Or a minute and 10 seconds that is.. The full two minutes took longer. In fact this is where I am now.

Some days I can hold a pair of pencils end to end forc2 minutes fairly easily. Other days? I struggle to make 90 seconds. Or a mere minute and a half. But each additional ten seconds which I can sustain the pencils? Results in more endurance on thise notes between high A and double C. It works! It really does!!!

And it cant do you any harm. As always however,

Do not over do this exercise.
It is not a warm up and should never be done before a gig!
Has no practical value on a gig excrpt to tire you out.
Patience, patience, PATIENCE!

Further?

Write down how often you do this exercise. I would not perform this exercise more than twice a week at first. Weight lifters get advice to practice heavy weights one day and light the next. Heavy, light, heavy the third day light the fourth etc.

Some weight lifters go,
Heavy, light, light &
Heavy, light, light!.

Resting is more important than the exercise.

Other benefits,

Mouthpiece or rather arm pressure can be radically reduced with this practice. As the outer embouchure muscles pick up the slack which your "strong arm" technique" used to employ.

While I've not had a chance to employ this idea with a dry lip trumpet player it is my guess that such exercise may allow a dry lip high note player to play his whole register on wet lips instead of dry.

Wet lips are always preferable if a trumpet player can use them. Those who play dry ought to ocassionally blow wet too. While a dry lip player can sometimes get an enviable upper register the damage which his chops can sustain may be dreadful. Louis Armstrong and Bill Chase where two examples of men who played dry but sustained brutal injuries to their chops.

Good luck y'all and remember,

"Take what ya want and leave the rest"

Or,

"Leave the gun, take the cannoli"...
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another gem from the great Lionel.

I've been doing the pencil thing for 5 minutes every evening after I am done playing for the day ever since my comeback last spring. But I avoid it if I have playing that evening. I believe it helps and now I will give the 2 pencil thing a go. I will also heed your advice on how long I should do it.

Thanks, Lionel.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeB wrote:
Another gem from the great Lionel.

I've been doing the pencil thing for 5 minutes every evening after I am done playing for the day ever since my comeback last spring. But I avoid it if I have playing that evening. I believe it helps and now I will give the 2 pencil thing a go. I will also heed your advice on how long I should do it.

Thanks, Lionel.



Thanks so much George. I have barely scratched out my buddy list on this forum as I'm still kinda new to TH. Not new to trumpet or high notes just new to this site.

I think that it was about three years ago when it dawned on me that building up a massively powerfull set of cheek and embouchure muscles could be the real "Equalizer" for those range deficiencies found in most all amateurs and even a number of professionals. It was either that or there was no cure for them. And to my thinking this later concept is most objectionable.

I'm working on the idea that for those of us unable to get much of a "power assist" into the extreme upper register? That by our development of radically strong cheek and embouchure muscles we can compensate for the incredible range some trumpet players seem to get by playing on dry lips.

Its like either you can play on dry lips or you can't. Or from another perspective,

"Either you can achieve a benefit from blowing on dry lips or you dont"

I personally can not benefit much from playing dry. I can play a few notes this way but achieve no range assist. Not so for others. In my phone conversations with a noted lead player of much experience and knowledge I have learned of those famous trumpet players who play dry and can just cream the HELL out of their endless range. Lol,

It ain't fair man! And this is true, life isn't fair. That said? My theory for why dry lip players often have such enviable upper registers has something to do with the connection made in the mouth corners of a dry setting trumpet player. Clearly the dry chops are making the upper lip receive air more efficiently. The key must be that on dry lips the resonant lip or upper lip is allowed to relax better. Meanwhile the tension at the corners of the chops meeting at the mouthpiece are uncluttered by excessive strain. In other words the dry contact is providing much of the support necessary to blow the high notes.

I'm probably correct here. Or close. And even if I'm slightly off base in my conclusion? The projections I've made certainly work. Just as if my speculations are valid.

So to my way of thinking it hardly matters if my theory of why a dry lip player can get such an advantage in the upper register is perfectly accurate. Because my main concern is "how the hell can I derive the same benefits the dry lip player gets"?

And I'm satisfied with my conclusion. Hopefully others who are stymied somewhere south of double C will also concur. Because if I'm correct then all we've got to do is develop superior power in our chops thanks to the radically increased isometrics. Well that and provide plenty of air support and have a willingness to put ourselves out there live on stage.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for passing on your knowledge, Lionel.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone out there is wondering about the 2 pencil thing Lionel has described, let me just say that it is not easy.
I have had two tries at it now and the first time I was counting and thought I had done it for 30 seconds, but the second time I used a stop watch and the best I could do was 19 seconds before the pencil dropped.
I have been doing the single pencil exercise for over a year and felt it did help the strength of my embouchure. I was doing it for 10 minutes but cut back to 5 because the other 5 wasn't necessary. But using 2 pencils taped end to end is a whole different ball game.
But as Lionel said, don't over do it at first. So what I do is tackle the 2 pencil thing one day and go back to the 1 pencil thing the next day. I doubt if will ever get to 2 minutes with 2 pencils like Lionel but I am shooting for 60 seconds.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lionel,

Instead of two pencils just close your teeth. If you have any sort of overbite, close them like that and try to get the pencil straight out. It makes it a heck of a lot harder if you take the Jaw-thrust out of the equation.
Then same thing, but with the front teeth together. This one will be easier than full overbite, but no where near as easy as you're probably used to if you're letting your lower jaw jut forward. The jaw position takes a lot of the work out of it, with the teeth closed, you end up really just working on the lip muscles.

FWIW this is the way Pops talks about the pencil exercise (Closed teeth)
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Hey Lionel,

Instead of two pencils just close your teeth. If you have any sort of overbite, close them like that and try to get the pencil straight out. It makes it a heck of a lot harder if you take the Jaw-thrust out of the equation.
Then same thing, but with the front teeth together. This one will be easier than full overbite, but no where near as easy as you're probably used to if you're letting your lower jaw jut forward. The jaw position takes a lot of the work out of it, with the teeth closed, you end up really just working on the lip muscles.

FWIW this is the way Pops talks about the pencil exercise (Closed teeth)



I personally wouldnt use what Clint McLaughlin suggests on this particular technique. There exists too much confusion on how to pull off his described exercise. Too tricky to understand. It may work well but doesnt seem to provide as consistent a load on the chops as two pencils taped end to end.

The real value of the double pencil is that it works as a terrific barometer of embouchure strength. When you start to pull 90 seconds? Youve got some brutally powerful chops. It is at about this point where I'm personally able to blow a high G at decent volume with only the normal contact pressure one would use on say a tuning note.

Conversely there is nothing tricky to understand about a 2 pencil taped end to end exercise. Its about as subtle as a three hundred pound barbell. By using a double pencil end to end? Worked up to 2 full minutes? I almost dont need to practice to maintain my chops. Practice at that point is more for fingers or tricky licks. That and just to reassure myself that I've got it. But I can do this because I've been playing 53 years. The less experienced person should not consider any isometric exercise a complete replacement for maintenance of technique.

Also,

There are plenty of good lead players who never use isometric exercises at all. I have devised the double pencil, taped end to end for the average, ungifted trumpet player. To him this concept + some mouthpiece experimentation + a little understanding of physics?

Is what I call the "Great Equalizer".

Again, some cats can leave the horn alone for six months. Not play at all. Then pick it up and blast dandy double C's.

I'm not one of those. Everything Ive got came from hard work, persistence and the long term application of both critical thinking and trial & error. It is my hope to pass these ideas on to those who struggle. My "gift" is that I dont have any natural ability. It allows me to understand the ungifted 99% of us.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am doing the 2-pencil exercise every other day and I have a long way to go to get above the 19-20 seconds I am managing now. It is hard. But if it was easy it wouldn't be worthwhile, would it. I am definitely going to stick with it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel - I always had very good success doing the pencil exercise exactly the way Pops describes it in his book, 'Chops Builder'. I haven't done the pencil exercise in quite awhile because I've been following Lynn Nicholson's MF Protocol, and he's always talking about very relaxed chops and very little muscle needing to come into play. But, in just checking things out, I tried the pencil exercise again to see if I lost chop strength from not doing it. What I found was that I could do it easier than ever. I then remembered Pops saying doing the pencil exercise strengthens the exact muscles that need to be strengthened and lets all the other ones relax. If you watch Pops' thermal imaging studies of players who are playing well into the upper register, there is not a lot of muscle activity and it's only relegated to a few muscles. Whereas, players who are less developed and have trouble ascending into the extreme register, show use of way more chop muscles.

My theory is that the unfurled rim buzzing I'm doing that Lynn recommends does work those few muscles that are needed to play well into the extreme register while training the body/air/tongue to come much more into play while also training other muscles in the embouchure that may usually be used to play, to relax. All the best, Lex
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel, I have a question about that. Wouldn't continued use of this put an uneven balance on the embouchure muscles, that is, more emphasis on the lower muscle in order to keep the two pencils protruded out (and especially upwards)?

In other words, in playing the trumpet/forming the embouchure muscles, don't we strive for evenness with both the upper and lower muscles?

(PS. I suppose some people just like the pastime of reading trumpet material, but for me, I would think the OP could've been written with about a third of the text - for whatever that's worth, LOL)
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Lionel, I have a question about that. Wouldn't continued use of this put an uneven balance on the embouchure muscles, that is, more emphasis on the lower muscle in order to keep the two pencils protruded out (and especially upwards)?

In other words, in playing the trumpet/forming the embouchure muscles, don't we strive for evenness with both the upper and lower muscles?

(PS. I suppose some people just like the pastime of reading trumpet material, but for me, I would think the OP could've been written with about a third of the text - for whatever that's worth, LOL)



Thete's no doubt that certain muscles which do not influence the embouchure's work that much are going to get stronger. This however is a moot point. Because the actual double pencil
, taped end to end is only the first part of my regimen. It may be the main and most difficult part but still only one of them.

The second part is what someone told me is called the 'segregation of muscle usage'. Just having powerful muscles is not helpful. As some facial muscles are flexed, others stay completely relaxed. The ones which must stay relaxed are those of the upper lip which rest inside the mouthpiece rim. So a secondary exercise to segregate this flesh/muscle may be required. Otherwise the whole strength exercise is wasted.

I havent yet put that second exercise into words yet. Although have sent it via p/m to a few people. Essentially a trumpet player concentrates on eliminating any flexation of the muscles on his upper lip which rest inside the mouthpiece. There are a couple tricks or hints on how to better facillitate this pattern but its not so hard. Essentially just work on relaxing that dime sized portion of your upper lip.

As for strengthening the lower lip? The lower lip has only a controlling function. It is really kind of "dumb".so that it doesnt matter if its strength exceeds what is necessary for the process.

I devised the idea of using a second pencil after making two observations,

1. That most the top level scream players used dry lip settings of some kind. I got this data from Chris LaBarbera years ago. And,
2. I realized that I personally could not derive any benefit from a dry lip setting.

This allowed me to reason that the scream player with relatively easy double C's was obtaining a benefit which most average trumpet players could not utilize. So I analyzed what this dry lip setting benefit could be. It then dawned on me that in the extreme upper register the segregation of muscle usage becomes more critical. In other words the point or junction where the upper lip starts to vibrate and where it does not is critical. And that a dry lip setting does both,
A. Allow complete relaxtion of the upper lip. And,
B. Reduce this transition point to a mere point in space.

I might add that dry lip trumpet players will likely need far less mbouchure strength to pull off good register. Thus these people will probably oppose the use of isometrics.

"I dont need it so why should you?"

Being their advice. Which is why, frankly I dont think the average trumpet player can actually glean much helpful knowledge from these heavy playing cats. You know, other than the fingerings, jazz licks and good style. But those matters are also made relatively easy if the embouchure works well.

I find these heavy players inspirational. And there are at least a few I believe to have much on the ball. And I speak favorably of them.

Yet when I find the ones who are pretty much clueless? I keep my mouth shut. It does me no good to point out the deficiencies of their theories. Just raises nasty arguments.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lionel. I look forward to your post about the exercise #2.

I do question, however, that most high-note players use dry lips. Isn't this contradicted by other name players/coaches who play on wet lips?
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops
Duplicate post
Deleted.
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Last edited by Lionel on Sat May 13, 2017 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Thanks, Lionel. I look forward to your post about the exercise #2.

I do question, however, that most high-note players use dry lips. Isn't this contradicted by other name players/coaches who play on wet lips?


Its a fair question and a good one. However I get most of my information from Chris LaBarbara. A highly distinguished pro who studief with Doc Reinhardt. Reinhardt himself did not advocate dry lip settings in his books. As they do tend to carve the hell out of the chops. However in his private discussions with Chris Doc was quoted to say,

"If you really want to play high notes? You can play with dry lips"

The missing statement here of course is "IF you can play dry". And I will admit that there are more than a few high note players who blow wet. Louis Maggio for one and I assume that his protege Carlton Macbeth another. As in the Maggio System wet lips were insisted.

Then we have cats who learned their great upper registers dry but then gradually shifted over to wet. One noted example of this is Roy Roman.

What's intetesting about the initial stages of upper register development is that we may at first rely upon certain aids to sustain our first high notes. In my own case I used an excessive Maggio "pucker". I would stick so much fat upper lip flesh into the mouthpiece that I'd feel the floor of the mouthpiece cup on my upper lip. Gradually however my chops and air support discontinued such a radical pucker. For several reasons,

The excessive pucker made it difficult to produce a good double forte in the middle and lower registers. In turn this made me resort to playing with less pucker in the middle/lower notes, then re-setting when above the staff to the highly pucketed setting. I played many, many professional gigs this way. In fact it wasnt until I got off the road and took the time to analyze my system when I finally switched to a more conventional embouchure setting. And I'm better off now for sure.

So you're asking some good questions Mr K. However the incidence of some wet setting high note trumpet players does not invalidate some of the theories we can derive from the fact that so many trumpet playerz with great high register do play dry.

Another thing to note is the prevalence of many significantly receded jaw trumpet players among the amateur to strong amateur level. And some but not many pros. Most notably Herb Alpert and Conrad Gozzo play(ed) with exceedingly receded jaw chops. Gozzo had solid high notes, Alpert probably doesnt. Indeed I refer to these significantly receded jaw embouchures as cats having "Herb Alpert chops". That's just what I call them. And oddly enough my own setting is exactly like Herbs. This is a very solid setting but found more often on trombone or lower brass players. I believe that Reinhardt referred to them as his "Type III Standard".

Yet when we review the jaw positions of great lead players we see these significantly receded jaw trumpet players far less common. Brisbois, Severinsen and Jon Faddis among the opposite type. Or Forward Jaw playerz.

Also there are quite a number of forward jaw trumpet players who while not making their living play high notes, still display an uncommon great ease of performance. Here I'm thinking of Al Hirt, Wynton Marsallis and Rolf Smedvig.

(I was deeply saddened to learn that Rolf died only a couple tears ago).

Actually we could put Rolf into the category of a great high note player too. As his meal ticket was all of his Baroquo music. He a seemingly effortless upper register performance.

Anyway what do these great players prove?

Granted Ive kinda mixed apples with oranges here by introducing different jaw positions into a discussion of wet vs dry chops but there is actually some relevance. As dry lip settings are far more common on forward jaw embouchures.

According to conversation with Chris ( he an utter fountain of fantastic information btw..) it was Roy Stevens who used to "scam" lots of his students. By tweeking their chops into a forward jaw setting, suggesting they blow on dry lips and more often than not these students would near immediately start squeaking some impressive double C's and higher. Unfortunately this system does not work well except for a minority of trumpet players. However once Roy got it into the kid's brain that he could eventually make those squeakers into solid, big notes?

Well according to Chris "he owned those students and made plenty of money off of them".

And while I'm a little more generous of my opinion of Roy? I hate to say it but there is probably a good deal of truth to Chris's words. After all he studied with both Stevens and Doc Reinhardt. And it was Reinhardt + a length of time finding out that the Stevens System wasnt all that good a fit for him that eventually got Chris following his more natural chop setting.

Gee I hope Chris doesnt mind me sharing this. I cant think of any reason why he would not. And after all I find his advice and reports highly helpful. So? I felt like sharing it.

We had two pieces of grafitti which I can remember from my music college practice rooms,

1. "You can't fight mother nature"
Meaning Doc Reinhardt's statement that those trumpet players not well predisposed to playing forward jaw settings shoud stick to their more natural inclinations. Essentially Doc Reinhardt's "Type IV A" is identical to the Stevens system. It is also the exact same setting as monsters like Cat Anderson and Bud Brisbois. And,

2. "All Roy Stevens has is a lot of brass players money"
And while I can certainly see the limitations of Stevens-Costello? I have a more favorable opinion of him than that expressed above. As he and his mentor William Costello really nailed some significant principles. It wasnt that the answer to playing strong high notes isnt found in physical science. But rather Stevens-Costello was incomplete in its assessment.
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Hey Lionel,

Instead of two pencils just close your teeth. If you have any sort of overbite, close them like that and try to get the pencil straight out. It makes it a heck of a lot harder if you take the Jaw-thrust out of the equation.
Then same thing, but with the front teeth together. This one will be easier than full overbite, but no where near as easy as you're probably used to if you're letting your lower jaw jut forward. The jaw position takes a lot of the work out of it, with the teeth closed, you end up really just working on the lip muscles.

FWIW this is the way Pops talks about the pencil exercise (Closed teeth)
I have to agree......with the "teeth closed" position the whole exercise makes more sense to me. I personally didn't see anything too complicated about "Pop's" method. When I first tried it my lower jaw was just too far forward, definitely not anything like my playing position. ....I found the exercise "way too easy" My first try at it and I held that darn pencil for over 8 minutes...(Then I read not to do it that long!!!!!!!)......with the teeth closed position,much more difficult. I guess you have to experiment a bit and see what works best for you and gives you the best results.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Half the advantage of the double pencil exercise (and really any pencil exercize for that mat
ter) is that it exists as an automatic reference point for measuring how much sheer strength your system has. Both in terms of endurance and range.

Range tends to equate with the total weight you can hold up with just the two lips all alone. Endurance tends to be analogous with how long you can hold the damned thing. Its not a perfect indicator either as someone may hold the double pencil well in between their lips and yet still have some kind of embouchure fault, mechanical quirk or otherwise incorrect movement and not derive a range benefit.

And of course there are trumpet players who play fine high notes and don't practice any isometric or other exercise at all.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel!
Found your post the other day (I do like your posts, so eloquent and perceptive) - decided to test so - taped 2 pencils (130mm long) together, then in between my lips, 90 degrees (=horisontal) - starting to hurt after 30 seconds and tremble a bit after 2 minutes. I could have continued. Teeth not closed, lips a bit drawn in between teeth. Is that the way to do it? Twice a day or?

I´m 74, started to play 1959. Cornet mouthpiece, Wick Ultra 7C, fairly deep, diam 16,25mm. Basic practice routine the BE method since Jan 2016. Today very good endurance but still lacking high register (above Eb/E).
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Lionel!
Found your post the other day (I do like your posts, so eloquent and perceptive) - decided to test so - taped 2 pencils (130mm long) together, then in between my lips, 90 degrees (=horisontal) - starting to hurt after 30 seconds and tremble a bit after 2 minutes. I could have continued. Teeth not closed, lips a bit drawn in between teeth. Is that the way to do it? Twice a day or?

I´m 74, started to play 1959. Cornet mouthpiece, Wick Ultra 7C, fairly deep, diam 16,25mm. Basic practice routine the BE method since Jan 2016. Today very good endurance but still lacking high register (above Eb/E).


I'm impressed that you got anywhere near 2 minutes on the double pencil routine. You may have naturally strong chops as it took me close to a year to develop the ability to hold the two pencils for two minutes.

Pretty much any way that you do the exercise holds benefits. You're the judge of this. Granted it is easier to hold any pencil with the pencil banging against the teeth. However the double pencil, taped end to end is so damned heavy and long that no matter which tricks that you may employ to hold it easier? You're certain to get a helluva workout regardless.

So while I'm not concerned about your pencil hokding technique nor the strength of your chops I am a little puzzled about why you're still having trouble breaking through the High D cut-off point. Because you obviously have tons of strength in your chops. In fact just to get a piece of a high F or G doesnt require as much strength as you already have.

So if learning to break through this common cut-off point is among your interests? I would be glad to share my ideas. By the way, although the high D cut-off point is as common as seagulls at the beach it can be defeated in just ten minutes. I'm not foolin here either.

By now you simply must have noticed how many otherwise good trumpet players have this devastating deficiency. In fact the high D cut-off point is the number one deficiency which prevents trumpet players fron blowing lead. Even those who switch to a smaller mouthpiece (which is advisable) will STILL cut-off at E Flat. Again, this is the most devastating brass player deficiency there is. Heck even the high G cut-off point isnt nearly so bad. Because if you're "good up to G"?
Almost nobody cares that you can't play the A or A flat above to save your life. I played the lead book for 5 years in a band which I just left around last Christmas. During those 5+ years?

No one cared if I hit the two B flats below double C in the whole dog gone whole book. But to play lead? And play it well?

You simply must have the high F. And probably the F# and G above. And you can fix the High D cut-off point in ten minutes. You may need a few months topolish it but the note will be there at least in the practice room.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An observation I just made a couple minutes ago.

Sometimes when beginning my doubled pencil, end to end routine exercise I notice right at the beginning that nothing feels right. While I can usually hold the doubled pencil for two minutes fairly easily? Sometimes this is not so. Being a person who likes to avoid negative thinking? I will usually stop immediately into the routine. Else that I may end up with a far shorter routine and have it spoil my practice session.

In fact my own chops just may need to warm up prior to beginning the double pencil routine. Yours may not swing so well either. So? I recommend anyone that is trying the pencil exercise to not prejudge themselves if they have a shorter holding pattern than the day before.

Because at least for me, my second time at attempting the exercise each day it works better.

Another matter,

When beginning to do the double pencil exercise I used overlap the erasers with electrical tape. Then insert the ordinary unsharpened end into my chops.

Lately however as I get stronger and the exercise easier? Have switched to taping the two pencils directly end to end. I just put a mere toothpick under the electrical tape. So as to avoid any bending of the taped pencils. Whatever way you do it however is most likely to be a good payoff.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Lionel!
Found your post the other day (I do like your posts, so eloquent and perceptive) - decided to test so - taped 2 pencils (130mm long) together, then in between my lips, 90 degrees (=horisontal) - starting to hurt after 30 seconds and tremble a bit after 2 minutes. I could have continued. Teeth not closed, lips a bit drawn in between teeth. Is that the way to do it? Twice a day or?

I´m 74, started to play 1959. Cornet mouthpiece, Wick Ultra 7C, fairly deep, diam 16,25mm. Basic practice routine the BE method since Jan 2016. Today very good endurance but still lacking high register (above Eb/E).


I'm impressed that you got anywhere near 2 minutes on the double pencil routine. You may have naturally strong chops as it took me close to a year to develop the ability to hold the two pencils for two minutes.

Pretty much any way that you do the exercise holds benefits. You're the judge of this. Granted it is easier to hold any pencil with the pencil banging against the teeth. However the double pencil, taped end to end is so damned heavy and long that no matter which tricks that you may employ to hold it easier? You're certain to get a helluva workout regardless.

So while I'm not concerned about your pencil hokding technique nor the strength of your chops I am a little puzzled about why you're still having trouble breaking through the High D cut-off point. Because you obviously have tons of strength in your chops. In fact just to get a piece of a high F or G doesnt require as much strength as you already have.

So if learning to break through this common cut-off point is among your interests? I would be glad to share my ideas. By the way, although the high D cut-off point is as common as seagulls at the beach it can be defeated in just ten minutes. I'm not foolin here either.

By now you simply must have noticed how many otherwise good trumpet players have this devastating deficiency. In fact the high D cut-off point is the number one deficiency which prevents trumpet players fron blowing lead. Even those who switch to a smaller mouthpiece (which is advisable) will STILL cut-off at E Flat. Again, this is the most devastating brass player deficiency there is. Heck even the high G cut-off point isnt nearly so bad. Because if you're "good up to G"?
Almost nobody cares that you can't play the A or A flat above to save your life. I played the lead book for 5 years in a band which I just left around last Christmas. During those 5+ years?

No one cared if I hit the two B flats below double C in the whole dog gone whole book. But to play lead? And play it well?

You simply must have the high F. And probably the F# and G above. And you can fix the High D cut-off point in ten minutes. You may need a few months topolish it but the note will be there at least in the practice room.



Exactly! I played lead in a swingband throughout the seventies, on a VB 1 1/4 C. Sometimes able to squeak out a high G, often nail a Eb, "Mr Anthony´s boogie", the "Trumpet Blues" (in D major) as amateurs would do it, technically rather OK, but never a "steadfast" upper high (above E) register. Big crisis some years ago, chops to the dogs, pro saved me and then I began to fly again by help of the BE method - never ever having had that solid chops, range in Brass Band quite OK and amazing endurance. But above E everytime I want? Nope.
I have become much better because of the BE, now solid D:s Eb:s; sometimes I can hear tiny tiny F:s, but might be wishful thinking.
At one point I thought the fact I am getting older (thank God...) could have something to do with it, but again this amzaing endurance.
Today lead ( ) in a mediocre big band, no problems with ordninary scores, but now and then a F is required. And why not a G?
On my Selmer Eb/D trumpet I can produce (sometimes at least) a high C, (S 11A). Playing the soprano back then in command up to the B.
ps Mouthpiece in big band a "Lead" (Brand, Swiss made) - also I have used S 14 A4(a), S 11 A, Superchops 1 - Jettone Studio 1; not fond of very shallow cups mostly because I play the cornet so very often - probably kind of a handicap since I never get really used to them.

So please if you could give me some tips I would be very grateful!
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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