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buzzing....like Charlie Porter


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aardvark
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: buzzing....like Charlie Porter Reply with quote

After watching the "Charlie Porter" post on lip set-up etc.....at the 41:01 minute mark he does some lip buzzing. I have never been a fan of buzzing, but I tried it on the mouthpiece and I really sucked at it. After quite a few attempts, I got fairly decent at it by opening up my lips just a bit. As far as buzzing "without" the mouthpiece, (with just the lips).... as Charlie demonstrated at 41:01 , I can buzz maybe one or two low tones and that's it!!!.........is there any benefit for me to work on lip buzzing?....I might add, I do have a solid high "C" and pretty good "F"...and can squeak out some double "C" 's ...don't understand how I can play a high "C" and not buzz it without the mouthpiece!!....will the lip buzzing help overall or should I just stick to mouthpiece buzzing?....or forget about it all and just play the horn!!!!!.........Thanks
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mouthpiece will limit your lip buzz to be only inside the mouthpiece. I (and maybe many or most?) who play bigger mouthpieces have to use lip/mouth muscles to further limit the buzz area in order to play higher notes, especially when playing soft.

I guess that you can play C, F, and even double C using all the lip area inside your mouthpiece without having to use muscles to further limit the buzz area.

Lip buzzing without the mouthpiece requires using lip/mouth muscles. My uneducated guess is that you don't need these muscles developed to play what you want. Why bother with free buzzing to develop something that you don't need??

Sounds like you play like I think Lynn Nicholson advocates.

I may be totally wrong and I'm sure I will be corrected if so.

What size mouthpiece do you play?
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aardvark
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using an old style, not re-issue, Jet-tone studio model B.....640 dia. I don't really consider it a really shallow piece.
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YoungMW
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to do free buzzing in the morning to get my lips warmed up. I also will do it for short bursts throughout the day to keep my embouchure in shape. I would spend time on it and explore how it can be useful to you. It took me about a year to free buzz a G on top of the staff, so don't be discouraged if you can't do it well yet.
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever works for you. Lip buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing, leadpipe buzzing, no buzzing?
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have doing these various buzzing exercises actually practicing good developmental material on your trumpet...

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have doing these various buzzing exercises actually practicing good developmental material on your trumpet...

Yes, it's easy to make that amusing point, but for it to have any real weight it presumes you can't both buzz and practice 'good development material' in the course of your day. A teacher of mine for a number of years, who was himself a student of Claude Gordon at one time, would have me do a few minutes of mouthpiece buzzing at the start of every day. He might have been violating some cardinal rule of CG's or something, but I think he got the idea from Boyd Hood, another well known West Coast trumpet teacher. I've never found buzzing the mpc. to be anything but beneficial. YMMV.

"Mouthpiece buzzing is essential to your ability to make a clear and focused sound. Try buzzing 2 or 3 minutes, 30 seconds at time before playing your horn, doing scales and simple melodies." -- Joe Alessi

See also: http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/understanding_the_mouthpiece
Particularly this section at the end of the article:
"Buzzing the mouthpiece is an excellent way to increase lip flexibility and increase vibration. I believe the time spent buzzing on the mouthpiece is more important than what is played. The best way to maximize ease of sound production is to buzz at a soft dynamic and try to produce maximum resonance for a minimum amount of energy. A player should try to feel like the rim of the mouthpiece is becoming a part of the lips. I remember years ago my friend Joe Alessi saying he was on the way to a concert and had a drive of several hours. He buzzed the mouthpiece all the way to the destination. When he arrived he said “I was a different player.” Great advice."

I realize both Mr. Alessi and Mr. Freidman are trombonists, but I'd say they both know quite a bit about brass playing.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have doing these various buzzing exercises actually practicing good developmental material on your trumpet...
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have posting the same tired old boilerplate snarky sanctimonious put-downs about a practice technique that you obviously don't understand, actually contributing something positive!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have doing these various buzzing exercises actually practicing good developmental material on your trumpet...
Imagine if you'd spent all the time you have posting the same tired old boilerplate snarky sanctimonious put-downs about a practice technique that you obviously don't understand, actually contributing something positive!




Damn. I'd be rich and famous. Why didn't you point this out years ago?!?! Oh wait, you wrote "actually contributing something positive" at the end there. I kind of speed-read your post and assumed you wrote "actually spent all that time practicing." So I wouldn't be rich and famous - but perhaps your heart rate would be lower.

Seriously, in my opinion, implicitly (or explicitly) pointing out that making it a routine habit to practice buzzing a mouthpiece is not as good a way to spend one's time as practicing a trumpet if the goal is to be a better trumpet player, is contributing something positive.

Now see if you can fit some negative adjectives into your next reply - you're being much too nice.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
A teacher of mine for a number of years, who was himself a student of Claude Gordon at one time, would have me do a few minutes of mouthpiece buzzing at the start of every day. He might have been violating some cardinal rule of CG's or something, but I think he got the idea from Boyd Hood, another well known West Coast trumpet teacher. I've never found buzzing the mpc. to be anything but beneficial. YMMV.


Hi Randy,

I know several CG students who also studied with Boyd, too. One of them used to fly in from Vegas for his lessons with Boyd and I'd pick him up at Burbank airport and drive him to the lessons at Boyd's house. Much of Boyd's teaching is based on the James Stamp material (which as most know, includes buzzing exercises).

Here's a shocker: I assign mouthpiece buzzing exercises on occasion to some of my students, in particular, when they are having trouble while practicing flexibility exercises slurring from the lower register to upper register notes that they can normally play. I have them practice what I call "Sirens" on the mouthpiece, glissandoing up and down in a range that is comfortable for them, gradually expanding the range of the glissando. I think this is helpful because the slots are eliminated, and also, possibly, there's a psychological aspect to it, by removing the trumpet and helping the student get over what is often at least partially a mental block.

But the caveat is, I only use this for select students with that particular problem, and the Siren exercise is only assigned for a short period of time, sometimes only during a particular lesson. When it comes to long-term daily practice, I think there are better ways to develop trumpet playing ability then buzzing a mouthpiece (in particular, practicing the trumpet).

It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s). It's too bad for them they get so upset. I don't. I wish them well.

Cheers,

John
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Here's a shocker: I assign mouthpiece buzzing exercises on occasion to some of my students, in particular, when they are having trouble while practicing flexibility exercises slurring from the lower register to upper register notes that they can normally play. I have them practice what I call "Sirens" on the mouthpiece, glissandoing up and down in a range that is comfortable for them, gradually expanding the range of the glissando. I think this is helpful because the slots are eliminated, and also, possibly, there's a psychological aspect to it, by removing the trumpet and helping the student get over what is often at least partially a mental block.

I suppose that might be helpful in some cases, as you describe. I was told to just try to make the note 'changes' between pitches in even a simple exercise as smooth as possible, almost like a trombone slide glissando, which probably aimed at the same sort of idea. /shrug

John Mohan wrote:
But the caveat is, I only use this for select students with that particular problem, and the Siren exercise is only assigned for a short period of time, sometimes only during a particular lesson. When it comes to long-term daily practice, I think there are better ways to develop trumpet playing ability then buzzing a mouthpiece (in particular, practicing the trumpet).

I mainly use the mouthpiece by itself now on the way to or from a rehearsal or gig while driving. I keep a mouthpiece that's much larger than what I usually play on in the car for that purpose, and I find it's an easy way to get warmed up prior to playing, or to relax the chops afterward. I don't sit at home running through pages of mouthpiece exercises or anything like that.

John Mohan wrote:
It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s).


Yes, I cringed when I saw the post you are likely referring to, especially since it was timed fairly closely to my own. Obviously I don't agree with the opinions expressed in it. Thanks for understanding that.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:

It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get (not you), simply because I don't agree with their opinion(s). It's too bad for them they get so upset. I don't. I wish them well.

It's interesting how fired up and upset some people get, simply because a practice technique that they don't understand and can't do correctly is discussed. It's too bad for them they get so upset.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher studied with Stamp before he studied with Gordon. When he went to the Gordon camps he used to talk about having to drive far far away into the woods for his warm-up to make sure Claude never heard him buzzing.

I was shown how to approach buzzing, both free and mouthpiece. Later on, when I felt I wasn't getting the expected benefit and possibly developing problems because of it, he advised me just not to do it anymore.
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Bert
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzzing the mouthpiece got me in deep trouble. NB. I was taught by a Stamp student, not somebody who didn't know how to do it properly.

Personally I never teach anyone to buzz the mouthpiece or to free buzz. Both simply are not how the trumpet is played. The trumpet works throught going from one overtone to the next. A mouthpiece or the lips don't have these slots. I think every student of the trumpet should learn to work with the slots. That is why we emphasize lipslurs. No other instruments than brass instruments need these crazy exercises, brass instruments work that way, so get control over the overtones and you have control over the horn.
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to second Bert's statement:

Quote:
Personally I never teach anyone to buzz the mouthpiece or to free buzz. Both simply are not how the trumpet is played. The trumpet works throught going from one overtone to the next. A mouthpiece or the lips don't have these slots. I think every student of the trumpet should learn to work with the slots. That is why we emphasize lipslurs. No other instruments than brass instruments need these crazy exercises, brass instruments work that way, so get control over the overtones and you have control over the horn.


An exception is extremely limited mouthpiece buzzing for beginners before they put the mouthpiece in the horn and begin practicing for the very first time only, not a daily thing.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lip or mpc buzzing have specific goals. Like said many times previously, it's like doing some exercices that have nothing to do with running when you're a sprinter, for developping your speed or power...

And to John, please confess that sometimes, you like to play, knowing you're throwing oil on fire I mean, you chose a form to express your opinion that will start a game.
Best and peace to everybody
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: To buzz or not. Reply with quote

Christian Lindberg on mouthpiece buzzing:


Link

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derekthor
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: To buzz or not. Reply with quote

Sustained note wrote:
Christian Lindberg on mouthpiece buzzing:


Link


Damn. Someone tell Michael Sachs that he's practicing a horrible sound.
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Sustained note
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: To buzz or not. Reply with quote

derekthor wrote:
Sustained note wrote:
Christian Lindberg on mouthpiece buzzing:


Link


Damn. Someone tell Michael Sachs that he's practicing a horrible sound.

Lindberg doesn't say something like this, only that the way you buzz a MP is totally different from the way you play. Lindberg demonstrates that had he tried to play the same and buzz and vice versa, his sound would be terrible, but he doesn't.
Some fantastic players do buzz. I bet there are some good ones who don't. I think it's also part of a long tradition. Teachers, great ones, taught this and their great students (i.e. Michael Sachs) subscribe to it and teach it. They still do buzz differently from the way they play.
To each his own.
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derekthor
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: To buzz or not. Reply with quote

Sustained note wrote:
derekthor wrote:
Sustained note wrote:
Christian Lindberg on mouthpiece buzzing:


Link


Damn. Someone tell Michael Sachs that he's practicing a horrible sound.

Lindberg doesn't say something like this, only that the way you buzz a MP is totally different from the way you play. Lindberg demonstrates that had he tried to play the same and buzz and vice versa, his sound would be terrible, but he doesn't.
Some fantastic players do buzz. I bet there are some good ones who don't. I think it's also part of a long tradition. Teachers, great ones, taught this and their great students (i.e. Michael Sachs) subscribe to it and teach it. They still do buzz differently from the way they play.
To each his own.


Other than the part where he literally says "when you practice on the mouthpiece you are practicing a horrible sound," I agree with you. It's almost like there's multiple ways to successfully teach and play the trumpet!
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