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cornet v. trumpet feel



 
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Moakleaves
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: cornet v. trumpet feel Reply with quote

Hey all,
My recently acquired Yamaha 2310 cornet (with a Bach 3c mp) feels significantly easier to play than my Bach 37 trumpet (with a Bach 1.5c mp).
Specifically, I feel I have more control over the cornet, with notes locking in more easily. My range is the same, but the upper register feels more effortless.

How would this be explained? Differences in mouthpieces? Bore of the cornet? Is my trumpet "too big" for me?

Just curious.[/i]
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, cornet and trumpet are quite different in sound and feel.

You have a different mouthpiece (size), it's a cornet mouthpiece (shorter shank), the bore of the cornet begins smaller, it's connical bore vs. cylindrical, it has one more wrap than the trumpet and made by a different manufacturer. Hmmmmm they play differently???

Easier, well.. cornets in general respond more quickly, thus flexibilty and maybe centering of notes. Range might be more responsive as you're not balancing the trumpet as well..

Then the 1.5C is a part of that equation: not only bigger but they tend to have a deeper cup shape than a 3C, definitely affecting how the upper register responds. Might be that the 1.5C is too big or too deep... If you're liking the feel of the coret mouthpiece try looking for a 3C for the trumpet.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
yes, cornet and trumpet are quite different in sound and feel.


Or, they could be the same, like mine.

It's just a different instrument, period. One cornet might play better for you than another cornet. Or this trumpet might be better for you than that trumpet.

Worth trying different mouthpieces for your trumpet if you like that more open feel.

Tom
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok this is complex.

First lets put to bed the cornet/trumpet thing. A Trumpet and a Cornet are much the same, both are conical bore instruments, the difference is almost entirely the mouthpiece. Having said that differences do exist between trumpets and cornets and vary from model to model.

Your ease with the upper register on the cornet is almost certainly due entirely to the mouthpiece. I would as already suggested get a 3c for the trumpet.

The note locking is almost certainly due to the valves, the valves in Yamahas are built with tighter clearances, tight valves make notes lock in more securely. Having said that the mouthpiece gap can affect this.

There will be a difference in the instruments due to the mouthpiece to leadpipe gap that is quite different in trumpets and cornets and that can lead to greater ease of playing and security of notes that you report.

In other words theres a lot of differences revolving around valve clearance mouthpiece choice and mouthpiece gap that can explain these characteristics.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Ok this is complex.

First lets put to bed the cornet/trumpet thing. A Trumpet and a Cornet are much the same, both are conical bore instruments, the difference is almost entirely the mouthpiece. Having said that differences do exist between trumpets and cornets and vary from model to model.

Your ease with the upper register on the cornet is almost certainly due entirely to the mouthpiece. I would as already suggested get a 3c for the trumpet.

The note locking is almost certainly due to the valves, the valves in Yamahas are built with tighter clearances, tight valves make notes lock in more securely. Having said that the mouthpiece gap can affect this.

There will be a difference in the instruments due to the mouthpiece to leadpipe gap that is quite different in trumpets and cornets and that can lead to greater ease of playing and security of notes that you report.

In other words theres a lot of differences revolving around valve clearance mouthpiece choice and mouthpiece gap that can explain these characteristics.


Nope. Totally different instruments. Mouthpiece only a small part of it.
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're comparing a student instrument, meant to be beginner-friendly, with a pro instrument.

Cornets are often given beginners because being about 5 inches shorter, they're often easier for a 7 or 8 year old to hold up.

My understanding is that student instruments will tend to "slot" better, have smaller bores etc differences making them easier to learn to play on, and pro horns can feel more difficult to a beginner, but have features that make them more desirable to pros.

So it's not just cornet vs. trumpet you're seeing, but student vs. pro instrument.


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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, the Yamaha 2310 can be a very nice instrument and play quite well. Mine does.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the cornet is easier to play in the middle and low register than the trumpet, yet the trumpet is easier to play in the upper register.

While a similar proportion of their tubing is conical vs. cylindrical, the rate of taper in the conical portion of tubing varies more in the cornet than in the trumpet. The cornet starts smaller, and the throat of the bell is larger than the trumpet. This accounts for a lot of the difference in response.

The mouthpieces you're using probably make an important difference. The 3C is probably easier for you to play, unless it's too small for you, in which case the 1.5C might be easier. I'm surprised you find the cornet easier to play in the upper register, but maybe the smaller, shallower 3C mouthpiece accounts for that.

I doubt the Bach 37 is too big for you, although the 1.5C mouthpiece might be too big for you.

It's worth mentioning that all this assumes both instruments are in similar good shape with no problems related to valve alignment, tight valve fit, water key corks with proper seal, proper mouthpiece/receiver gap or insertion depth, etc.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with Crazy Finn here. One cornet and one trumpet is not enough to conclude to general differences between these types of instruments.
And it has nothing to do with a student horn or a professional one.
The YCR 2310 (I have one of the older types made in Japan) are excellent playing horns. I doubt they are really fitted for a student because of the enormous bell which can be difficult to fill if your embouchure is not really developed.
I suppose it was a Schilke design and I mean that as a compliment.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

There will be a difference in the instruments due to the mouthpiece to leadpipe gap that is quite different in trumpets and cornets and that can lead to greater ease of playing and security of notes that you report.

So is mouthpiece gap the difference in diameter of the end of the mouthpiece compared to the leadpipe bore diameter at that point?
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
enormous bell which can be difficult to fill if your embouchure is not really developed.


Huh? I have many cornets and the bells are all different from very small and narrow flare to very large. Sound changes throughout, but the effort is about the same. And that is using the same mouthpiece.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also use a Yamaha 2310 and like its rich tone, but agree that it is no different effort-wise than a small bell. I think my wife's larger bore Bach 310 trumpet is more free blowing. I'm a beginner comeback player. I also have other cornets, some are more free blowing than others although subtle. Mainly thinking of the Blessing Artist stencil which another poster commented on once about it being so nice and almost plays itself, which I agree with. It is my favorite although I still always use the Yamaha for practice yet. After playing a King that was much brighter and mouthpiece sensitive, I noticed I had sort of airy tone that was masked by the richness of the Yamaha. I then found I was over-blowing. I don't think the quality of the valves on the Yamaha are quite as good as the other old pro horns or the Blessing but they do have wear. They do fine though with some Yamaha synthetic oil and haven't had any trouble since cleaning it and using that oil.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Quote:
enormous bell which can be difficult to fill if your embouchure is not really developed.


Huh? I have many cornets and the bells are all different from very small and narrow flare to very large. Sound changes throughout, but the effort is about the same. And that is using the same mouthpiece.


Nice to have a different experience. Did you ever play a 2310?

BTW this is what Conn said about the difference between the 36B and 38B (differences: the 36B has a smaller bell and slightly lighter bracing):

For those who like the 38B features but prefer an instrument a little easier to fill in all registers and lighter to hold. Medium large bore feel. Length 21½". Bell 4 5/8". (from Conn loyalist)


Last edited by delano on Wed May 24, 2017 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lambchop wrote:
I also use a Yamaha 2310 and like its rich tone, but agree that it is no different effort-wise than a small bell. I think my wife's larger bore Bach 310 trumpet is more free blowing. I'm a beginner comeback player. I also have other cornets, some are more free blowing than others although subtle. Mainly thinking of the Blessing Artist stencil which another poster commented on once about it being so nice and almost plays itself, which I agree with. It is my favorite although I still always use the Yamaha for practice yet. After playing a King that was much brighter and mouthpiece sensitive, I noticed I had sort of airy tone that was masked by the richness of the Yamaha. I then found I was over-blowing. I don't think the quality of the valves on the Yamaha are quite as good as the other old pro horns or the Blessing but they do have wear. They do fine though with some Yamaha synthetic oil and haven't had any trouble since cleaning it and using that oil.


I am sorry but I don't understand your post.

If you mean with "the larger bore Bach 310 trumpet" a Bach CR 310 cornet or a Bach TR300 trumpet then something went wrong. The Bach CR310 has a 0459 bore. The TR300 trumpet has also a 0'459 bore. The older YCR 2310 (that's the one I own) has a 0.463 bore and the CR bell that's about 5 1/8 inch. The YCR2310II had the same bell and a 0.462 bore. And the YCR 2310III has a 0.459 bore and a 4 3/4 bell (I never played that last one). So what about your larger bore?
Anyway the whole concept of "free blowing" is dark and controversial.
The bore of an instrument can play a role in it but nothing more than that.
And you are comparing the valves of a cheap student horn with the valves of pro horns and you got to the conclusion that the pro horns have better valves. Yes, possible. The valves of my 2310 are not very sophistocated but they work fine and the horn has a first class compression.
Finally, the YCR 2310 that I own has such a low accoustic resistance that I had to buy a smaller backbore (Warburton 6) to be able to play that horn.
I blame the big bell for that but maybe I'm wrong.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:

If you mean with "the larger bore Bach 310 trumpet" a Bach CR 310 cornet or a Bach TR300 trumpet then something went wrong. The Bach CR310 has a 0459 bore. The TR300 trumpet has also a 0'459 bore. The older YCR 2310 (that's the one I own) has a 0.463 bore and the CR bell that's about 5 1/8 inch. The YCR2310II had the same bell and a 0.462 bore. And the YCR 2310III has a 0.459 bore and a 4 3/4 bell (I never played that last one). So what about your larger bore?
Anyway the whole concept of "free blowing" is dark and controversial.
The bore of an instrument can play a role in it but nothing more than that.
And you are comparing the valves of a cheap student horn with the valves of pro horns and you got to the conclusion that the pro horns have better valves. Yes, possible. The valves of my 2310 are not very sophistocated but they work fine and the horn has a first class compression.
Finally, the YCR 2310 that I own has such a low accoustic resistance that I had to buy a smaller backbore (Warburton 6) to be able to play that horn.
I blame the big bell for that but maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry, I meant a TR300 trumpet. I also have the older YCR2310, so you are saying it has a larger bore which is surprising to me, but I was also thinking of the leadpipe which is larger on the trumpets. Thanks for the info on the models and bore sizes. That's pretty interesting. Glad I have an older one. I'm just using the usual 7C mouthpiece. I was going to do some bore measurements now that I just got my hole gauges back. There are a lot of variables I'm finding out, so I tend to believe you about the "free blowing" characteristic.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:

The valves of my 2310 are not very sophistocated but they work fine and the horn has a first class compression.

The compression on mine is OK, but not that great, but I think it has a lot of wear. After thinking some more about it, I don't think the defect in the piston I noticed was from manufacturing, but from someone pounding out a valve from the bottom when it had a piece of dirt or corrosion from a port stuck in it.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
I am sorry but I don't understand your post.

If you mean with "the larger bore Bach 310 trumpet" a Bach CR 310 cornet or a Bach TR300 trumpet then something went wrong. The Bach CR310 has a 0459 bore. The TR300 trumpet has also a 0'459 bore. The older YCR 2310 (that's the one I own) has a 0.463 bore and the CR bell that's about 5 1/8 inch. The YCR2310II had the same bell and a 0.462 bore. And the YCR 2310III has a 0.459 bore and a 4 3/4 bell (I never played that last one). So what about your larger bore?
Anyway the whole concept of "free blowing" is dark and controversial.
The bore of an instrument can play a role in it but nothing more than that.
And you are comparing the valves of a cheap student horn with the valves of pro horns and you got to the conclusion that the pro horns have better valves. Yes, possible. The valves of my 2310 are not very sophistocated but they work fine and the horn has a first class compression.
Finally, the YCR 2310 that I own has such a low accoustic resistance that I had to buy a smaller backbore (Warburton 6) to be able to play that horn.
I blame the big bell for that but maybe I'm wrong.

The Yamaha 2310 was my instrument when I was in 5th grade and I used it until I got my professional Yamaha part way through 9th grade. Once I got that hang of it a little, I never had issues playing that horn. I used a Bach 7C during that period, as I recall. I also seems to work fine with my 3C, 1 1/2C, and 4B.

I suppose it's a bit free blowing, but I like that in a horn. Do I like it because it's free blowing or do I like free blowing horns because the horn I started on was free blowing? Dunno. Works for me, though.

It's the original model 2310 with the 0.463 bore and the big bell from the mid-80's. Still a really nice horn, glad I've kept it.
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