While it is tempting and entertaining to make comparisons with some perceived past time they are really useless.
What difference does it make what stores were selling them for in 1975?? It is all about what price the market TODAY will bear.
What is this weird idea that Bach is apparently immoral if they are selling trumpets for a higher relative price than 35 yrs ago?? If Bach were to successfully sell their current models for $5,000 would that be even more immoral and unfair??
And John -- I paid $300 for my new, lacquer Bach 37 in 1979 and $350 for my new, silver Bach 239 C. How did that happen???
It just seems pointless and even deleterious to compare something as variable as the pricing of an item over 35 yrs.
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject:
rockford wrote:
James Becker wrote:
At the risk of having my post pulled, please read this article and tell the rest of us why you think the purchase price of Bach trumpets is due to the cost of the labor to build them. How many of you could survive a cut in pay from $24.50 to $17.00 per hour?
As of the writing of this article all student model Bach brass manufacturing has been moved to the Eastlake, OH plant. So with the elimination of Selmer USA saxophones and Bach student brass, the Elkhart plant can focus exclusively on manufacturing Stradivarius professional brass instruments.
This article lays out the facts well as I understand them. Without pay cuts the days of manufacturing student/intermediate level instruments at Conn-Selmer were coming to a close. My personal take is that the Union and many of the workers didn't seem to get that.
That's always the challenge. The working man doesn't see the other end of the equation. The business owner sees the cost of labor too high, the worker the wages being paid as too low. Something has to give. If the quality of a product can be sufficiently superior to charge a premium price for the instrument made, then higher wages are possible. If the quality is on par with instruments made elsewhere at a significantly low cost for labor (parts should be about the same for both locations, and even if not, would likely be higher here than there due to the fact that many parts are being made outside the US now), the higher paid worker causes the cost of their product to be higher. With no distinction in quality, most Americans will buy the lower priced items. Americans have always done this as a whole. Hence the closing of Sears, Montgomery Ward, JC Penney, and a host of other department stores of the past in favor of Walmart, the Dollar General, the Dollar Store, and like places. Even the K-Marts in my part of the world have all closed.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject:
cjl wrote:
While it is tempting and entertaining to make comparisons with some perceived past time they are really useless.
What difference does it make what stores were selling them for in 1975?? It is all about what price the market TODAY will bear.
What is this weird idea that Bach is apparently immoral if they are selling trumpets for a higher relative price than 35 yrs ago?? If Bach were to successfully sell their current models for $5,000 would that be even more immoral and unfair??
And John -- I paid $300 for my new, lacquer Bach 37 in 1979 and $350 for my new, silver Bach 239 C. How did that happen???
It just seems pointless and even deleterious to compare something as variable as the pricing of an item over 35 yrs.
-- Joe
Over time, we do these comparisons simply as a barometer. Gasoline was 66 cents a gallon in my home town in 1977. Today, gas was $2.35. Have we improved and reduced the cost of oil production and refinement? Probably. Have environment regulations increased the prices of gas? Probably. Have taxes per gallon of gas at the pump increased in most every state? Yes. So, comparing that gallon in 1977 to 2017 is a huge difference, but it is the same commodity and it is the same basic principle.
In 1980, Bach silver trumpets were $450 from Zepp's in Burbank, mostly because the price of silver had gone sky high due to the Hunt Brothers attempting to corner the market. Has silver changed? If anything, the processing of silver has decreased in price.
All of this to say, your premise is great, but comparisons are made because of similar items still being important in our society. How about a gallon of milk? Or a dozen eggs? A pound of bacon? These are items that have been both "good" and "bad" to eat in the last 40 years according to reports, but the prices have consistently increased.
There are simply too many variables to even compare the prices of exactly the same item to it's modern counterpart. But we do it to at least give some look at a similar item.
Honestly, looking at Bb trumpets in the market, the Bach looks like a discount.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: New 2-piece valve casing 72 Bach trumpet?
abundrefo wrote:
Hello,
I was checking these newer Bach models and all the Bb 190 series trumpets feature a two-piece valve casing. The 19037 has a 37 bell, the Artisan has a 37(ish?) bell and the 19043B has a 43 bell with a 5" diameter.
But there is no model 19072 (a two-piece valve casing 72 bell Bach trumpet).
I wonder why...
Do you know if Bach will launch that model anytime soon?
Thanks!
The Bel Canto trumpets were modeled after early Bachs. The #59 Bell is most comparable to the Bach 72. There was one available in the marketplace. You may find one at A&G in Oakland. _________________ LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject:
TrumpetMD wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
According to the CPI Calculator, $500 in 1975 is worth $2256 today....
To Bach's credit, I'm sure at least a portion of the reason for the decreased value to price ratio is due to ....
I'm a lead trumpet player, I'm stubborn as hell and I'm sticking to my opinion.
John brings up some great points, and interesting reasons for the value-to-price changes of Bach trumpets. But I suspect you'll find the same value-to-price changes with other brands. Anyone know the street price for a Schilke B5 in 1975?
My only disagreement with John is that I'm a jazz trumpet player. I suppose John's reply would suggest that I'm less stubborn. But I think my wife would disagree.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Apparently your wife and my wife have a lot in common.
Concerning the 1975 price of a Schilke, I can't remember the exact amount, but I do remember it being somewhere around one to two hundred dollars more than a Bach Strad at that time (which percentage-wise, is pretty significant considering the Bach was only around $500 at the typical discounted price. Now the price difference between a Bach and a Schilke is very small. The WWBW sells the Bach Strad for $2829 and the Schilke for $2875. This was the point I was trying to make when pointing out that many things, from Rolex Watches to Schilke trumpets have followed the CPI fairly closely historically speaking - by not the Bach company which has increased prices significantly faster than inflation over the years.
Best wishes,
John
P.S. I've been accepted into the City Colleges of Chicago Nursing Program! In two years, I'll have my R.N., then two years after that I hope to have two years of Critical Care experience which will allow me to apply to the Rush University Nurse Anesthetist Doctoral program. Woo-Hoo!!!!
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:05 pm Post subject:
cjl wrote:
While it is tempting and entertaining to make comparisons with some perceived past time they are really useless.
What difference does it make what stores were selling them for in 1975?? It is all about what price the market TODAY will bear.
What is this weird idea that Bach is apparently immoral if they are selling trumpets for a higher relative price than 35 yrs ago?? If Bach were to successfully sell their current models for $5,000 would that be even more immoral and unfair??
And John -- I paid $300 for my new, lacquer Bach 37 in 1979 and $350 for my new, silver Bach 239 C. How did that happen???
It just seems pointless and even deleterious to compare something as variable as the pricing of an item over 35 yrs.
-- Joe
Who wrote anything about Bach being "immoral" for selling what ever they sell at what ever price they sell it at? Certainly not me. I'm a free market kind of guy all the way.
I think my point and query into the reasons is a valid one - if you remember, my original premise was I find it interesting how a company can come out with a "new" product (the 190 series) that they describe as being as good as their older product (the 180 series from back in the day), implying both it and their older 180 series are better than their current offering of the 180 series, and furthermore, that both the current 180 and 190 are more expensive than the 180 was back in the day even when adjusted for inflation.
And in part of your reply, you provide a good answer - that it all comes down to supply and demand. Perhaps that is a significant part of the answer that the prices have climbed. Over the years, Bach has built up a high demand for their instruments and now they are reaping their just reward. Personally though, I'd still prefer a Kanstul made Burbank, or a Schilke (or even better, a good used Benge).
Cheers,
John
P.S. Concerning those great prices you got your horns for, I pulled off something similar. There was a brand new silver plated Benge CG trumpet sitting in a small music shop in Downers Grove (20 minutes from where I went to High School). I play tested it in 1977. Three and a half years later it was still at the shop. They sold it to me for $350. Bazinga!!!
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject:
John Mohan wrote:
P.S. I've been accepted into the City Colleges of Chicago Nursing Program! In two years, I'll have my R.N., then two years after that I hope to have two years of Critical Care experience which will allow me to apply to the Rush University Nurse Anesthetist Doctoral program. Woo-Hoo!!!!
Very nice. BSN to CRNA is a great pathway for nurses. Congratulations!
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject:
John Mohan wrote:
Who wrote anything about Bach being "immoral" for selling what ever they sell at what ever price they sell it at? Certainly not me. I'm a free market kind of guy all the way.
It may be good to note that Bach, in its various corporate guises thought it good that the wholesale price of their wares internationally should be the US RRP...
Yes, when they added a middleman to take care of their distribution down under, there was zero concession on prices, in fact it was more costly. The result was extraordinarily inflated price here, to the point we could order from giardinellis, pay for shipping, taxes, the full cost of the horn, as we wanted it, and pay just about half our asking street price!
They did less and charged more... just cause they could. It lead to the closure or quite a few distributors over the years...
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject:
Andy Del wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Who wrote anything about Bach being "immoral" for selling what ever they sell at what ever price they sell it at? Certainly not me. I'm a free market kind of guy all the way.
It may be good to note that Bach, in its various corporate guises thought it good that the wholesale price of their wares internationally should be the US RRP...
Yes, when they added a middleman to take care of their distribution down under, there was zero concession on prices, in fact it was more costly. The result was extraordinarily inflated price here, to the point we could order from giardinellis, pay for shipping, taxes, the full cost of the horn, as we wanted it, and pay just about half our asking street price!
They did less and charged more... just cause they could. It lead to the closure or quite a few distributors over the years...
Cheers
Andy
We also have had the closure of many distributors here in the US. My point being that price might not have been the only reason.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject:
TrumpetMD wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
P.S. I've been accepted into the City Colleges of Chicago Nursing Program! In two years, I'll have my R.N., then two years after that I hope to have two years of Critical Care experience which will allow me to apply to the Rush University Nurse Anesthetist Doctoral program. Woo-Hoo!!!!
Very nice. BSN to CRNA is a great pathway for nurses. Congratulations!
Mike
Thank you! I failed to mention that I'm still holding onto my dream of getting into medical school and do plan to apply to all the Chicago area med school programs at the same time I apply to the three Chicago area Nurse Anesthetist programs (Rush University being my first choice for the Anesthetist programs because it's ranked number 3 in the country out of 113 programs). I just think it's unlikely that I'll get accepted into a Med School in my late 50's (though it has been done before by a few). Either way, I'll be happy. And even if I can't get either type of program to take me, I'll apply the next year to some normal DNP programs (that aren't as competitive as the Med School and Nurse Anesthetist programs). One way or another I'll have direct patient contact in about two years and I'm very excited about that!
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:49 am Post subject:
dr_trumpet wrote:
Hence the closing of Sears, Montgomery Ward, JC Penney, and a host of other department stores of the past in favor of Walmart, the Dollar General, the Dollar Store, and like places. Even the K-Marts in my part of the world have all closed.
AL
Yes, and now instead of buying things like fans and vacuum cleaners that last for years and years (to wit, my grandparents' 1950's era window fan and Electrolux vacuum cleaner work as good as the day they were bought new), now we get to go to Walmart and buy fans made in China, with cheap components, including spindle bearings in their cheap little electric motors (which are not sealed) that fill up with dust causing excess drag after a year or two, causing the motors to run at less than their specified RPM and therefore burn out, filling the house with that hideous burnt-out-electric-motor-smell, necessitating a trip to... Walmart to buy another fan. Lather, rinse, and repeat. Even brands that were once of top quality have been ruined. My sister still has and uses my Grandmother's Osterizer that's at least 40 years old (probably more like 60) and works fine. My wife bought an Oster brand mixer recently (their business motto: "Legendary Performance, Designed to Last"). It broke last night while whipping cream. It was the second time she ever used it. Guess where it was made?
We've done this to ourselves.
Thank goodness Bach trumpets (and Schilke, Getzen, Kanstul and the others) are still made here with top level quality.
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:38 pm Post subject:
Quote:
John Mohan posted:
P.S. I've been accepted into the City Colleges of Chicago Nursing Program! In two years, I'll have my R.N., then two years after that I hope to have two years of Critical Care experience which will allow me to apply to the Rush University Nurse Anesthetist Doctoral program. Woo-Hoo!!!!
John, let me offer my hardy congratulations.
Tell me one thing. Is a lead trumpet player required to take extra courses on bedside manner?
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject:
John Mohan wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
Hence the closing of Sears, Montgomery Ward, JC Penney, and a host of other department stores of the past in favor of Walmart, the Dollar General, the Dollar Store, and like places. Even the K-Marts in my part of the world have all closed.
AL
Yes, and now instead of buying things like fans and vacuum cleaners that last for years and years (to wit, my grandparents' 1950's era window fan and Electrolux vacuum cleaner work as good as the day they were bought new), now we get to go to Walmart and buy fans made in China, with cheap components, including spindle bearings in their cheap little electric motors (which are not sealed) that fill up with dust causing excess drag after a year or two, causing the motors to run at less than their specified RPM and therefore burn out, filling the house with that hideous burnt-out-electric-motor-smell, necessitating a trip to... Walmart to buy another fan. Lather, rinse, and repeat. Even brands that were once of top quality have been ruined. My sister still has and uses my Grandmother's Osterizer that's at least 40 years old (probably more like 60) and works fine. My wife bought an Oster brand mixer recently (their business motto: "Legendary Performance, Designed to Last"). It broke last night while whipping cream. It was the second time she ever used it. Guess where it was made?
We've done this to ourselves.
Thank goodness Bach trumpets (and Schilke, Getzen, Kanstul and the others) are still made here with top level quality.
Cheers,
John
Spot on, my friend! BTW, my wife was a surgical nurse for 34 years before going into dialysis recently. Quite a varied and busy career choice!
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject:
dr_trumpet wrote:
Spot on, my friend! BTW, my wife was a surgical nurse for 34 years before going into dialysis recently. Quite a varied and busy career choice!
AL
Thanks Al. I was worried I sounded too crabby in that post of mine - if so I'd blame it on the heat here (while neglecting to mention the wonderfulness of air conditioning).
But now I'm wondering where those Sears air conditioners were made...
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:10 pm Post subject:
Grits Burgh wrote:
Quote:
John Mohan posted:
P.S. I've been accepted into the City Colleges of Chicago Nursing Program! In two years, I'll have my R.N., then two years after that I hope to have two years of Critical Care experience which will allow me to apply to the Rush University Nurse Anesthetist Doctoral program. Woo-Hoo!!!!
John, let me offer my hardy congratulations.
Tell me one thing. Is a lead trumpet player required to take extra courses on bedside manner?
Warm regards,
Grits
Screw bedside manner. (So yes, probably a lot of extra courses will be required on that subject).
Or maybe not... It depends on whether or not they let me transfer my bed-related experiences as a lead trumpet player from my early years on the road into my transcript.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject:
TrumpetMD wrote:
Grits Burgh wrote:
John, let me offer my hardy congratulations.
Tell me one thing. Is a lead trumpet player required to take extra courses on bedside manner?
Warm regards,
Grits
He want to be a Nurse Anesthetist. His patients will all be asleep. He won't need a bedside manner.
Mike
Ah yes, and even better answer to Grits' query than mine!
And another big PLUS in the Anesthetist goal/plan...
Though seriously, I've read that being able to put anxious patients headed to surgery at ease is an important part of being an Anesthesiologist or a Nurse Anesthetist - I figure if my charming personality doesn't cut the cake a Fentanyl IV Push should do the trick. (The last bit is not part of the "seriously" section - that's my story and I'm stickin' to it).
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: New 2-piece valve casing 72 Bach trumpet?
That's seems crazy that Bach wouldn't allow someone to special order a 72 bell on the 190 series. How hard can that be to simply pound out the bell on a 72 versus 43 mandrel? And if there's so little demand for the 72 bell, then why is it still offered on the 180? Hmmm. I was just about to attempt to order one...I'll take a stab at contacting them with an immediate offer to purchase at a premium price.
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