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delano
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Location: The Netherlands
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 Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:58 am Post subject: |
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My brother loves old VW's. When he drives that old beetle he has to fill his tank very often, maximum speed is 60 miles, it makes a lot of noise and it is often broken but still he is very happy with it.
But for his work he uses a modern Suzuki.
Same with horns. |
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robbrand
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Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 120
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Love this discussion!
As a rank amateur, I'm not really qualified to contribute - but here's one observation: you'd be hard-pressed to find any top professional playing a vintage trumpet as a first-choice horn. Those ``lifeless'' modern Yamahas, Bachs, etc are good enough for the vast majority of orchestral players and soloists.
I have three horns, one of which probably qualifies as vintage and another of which is 20 years old, and they're all great. But if I had to make do with only one of them, it would be the newest - the Yamaha.
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B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| robbrand wrote: | Love this discussion!
As a rank amateur, I'm not really qualified to contribute - but here's one observation: you'd be hard-pressed to find any top professional playing a vintage trumpet as a first-choice horn. Those ``lifeless'' modern Yamahas, Bachs, etc are good enough for the vast majority of orchestral players and soloists. |
Define "top professional"...
If you're talking about major symphony seats then with the exception of vintage Bachs you might have a point - if you're talking about solo artists, jazzers, studio players then you'd have absolutely no trouble reeling off a long list of top pro players using vintage horns.
I'm not real hot on who's using what - but I know enough to know that that statement was wide of the mark. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | My brother loves old VW's. When he drives that old beetle he has to fill his tank very often, maximum speed is 60 miles, it makes a lot of noise and it is often broken but still he is very happy with it.
But for his work he uses a modern Suzuki.
Same with horns. |
Hi delano
Very good point.
Yes, I am sure that a very good tech could restore my Bach to like new, which would probably mean new valves or replating the valves, despite the fact that the compression is apparently good, simply because nothing I've found so far (and I've also experimented with different valve oils, obviously cleaning thoroughly in between) will stop the first valve from sticking on the upstroke.
I suppose however that if I was to do this, you would then have the added complication for the purpose of this discussion, of whether you are talking about an original or restored vintage horn.
Regarding your brother's VW, obviously it isn't quite the same thing, as car engineering has improved a lot more over the years than trumpet design, and there isn't anything fundamentally different between my 1979 Bach and modern Yamaha trumpets, but for similar reasons that your brother drives a modern Suzuki to work, I won't take my Bach to a rehearsal or gig, and instead take my modern Yamaha.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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deleted_user_680e93b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | delano wrote: | My brother loves old VW's. When he drives that old beetle he has to fill his tank very often, maximum speed is 60 miles, it makes a lot of noise and it is often broken but still he is very happy with it.
But for his work he uses a modern Suzuki.
Same with horns. |
Hi delano
Very good point.
Yes, I am sure that a very good tech could restore my Bach to like new, which would probably mean new valves or replating the valves, despite the fact that the compression is apparently good, simply because nothing I've found so far (and I've also experimented with different valve oils, obviously cleaning thoroughly in between) will stop the first valve from sticking on the upstroke.
I suppose however that if I was to do this, you would then have the added complication for the purpose of this discussion, of whether you are talking about an original or restored vintage horn.
Regarding your brother's VW, obviously it isn't quite the same thing, as car engineering has improved a lot more over the years than trumpet design, and there isn't anything fundamentally different between my 1979 Bach and modern Yamaha trumpets, but for similar reasons that your brother drives a modern Suzuki to work, I won't take my Bach to a rehearsal or gig, and instead take my modern Yamaha.
Take care
Lou |
Hello Lou,
I would try Alisyn Oil if you haven't for those pesky sticky valves.
It has saved me a few times.
regards,
tom |
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MacMichael
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Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Dennis78 wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
My opinion on this is that I prefer the reliability of a modern instrument. I'm not saying that all vintage or even the majority of vintage instruments are unreliable, only that I don't want to risk another unreliable one.
My 1978 Bach 37 has a great sound, but the 1st valve to a greater extent, and 2nd valve to a lesser extent, remain problematic. Holton valve oil seems to cause me less trouble, but there is still this sticking on the upstroke of the 1st valve, which drives me mad. I have replacement valve guides, new springs and it had a valve alignment not long ago, so new internal valve felts. I've also replaced the top cap rubber bumpers. This trumpet is really clean, as it has had multiple cleans with a H W Brass Saver pull through, and I have had the H W Brass Saver through all of the tubing, paying particular attention to the tubes between the valves, but it still continues to play up.
I have been advised by two different UK techs that the valve compression is very good considering the age of my trumpet, so it shouldn't need a valve job, and I don't want the valves lapped any further as it is hardly a new instrument whose valves are still in the break in stage, but the issues remain with no obvious way of resolving them, and are very frustrating.
I therefore play a modern Yamaha Xeno II, because I oil the valves every time I play, and can rely on the valves to work reliably without sticking.
Yes, probably this is an issue with one Bach Strad, but it has completely put me off older instruments.
I just cannot be doing with sticking valves any more.
Most probably sticking valves are not an issue with all or even most vintage instruments, but older valves played by probably more than one player who probably press them down slightly differently, and which may or may not have been probably maintained and oiled regularly, is too much of a risk for me after years of battling with my Bach Strad.
YMMV
All the best
Lou |
All very true and relevant. Problem valves drive me crazy |
Yes, of course, sticky valves are a pain in the ...,
but that does not necessarily mean vintage horn valves only 
But very often, as Louise has pointed out, the different angle
at which a valve has been depressed over the years is very likely to contribute to sticky valves.
_________________
Olds Recording Trumpet, LA 1951
Carol Brass 8060H-GLS balanced Trumpet
Jupiter Flugelhorn 846RL |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| KRELL1960 wrote: |
Hello Lou,
I would try Alisyn Oil if you haven't for those pesky sticky valves.
It has saved me a few times.
regards,
tom |
Hi Tom
Thanks very much. I have a bottle of Alisyn oil. I can't remember if it came with my previous Sovereign or Smith Watkins K2, but I still have it. I can't say that I thought much of it, and it is very viscous (see quote below), but it is worth a try, thanks. The only issue is that I believe that it is now discontinued.
Take care
Lou
| veery715 wrote: | Courtesy MusiChem: http://www.musichem.com/articles/p_oil_e.htm
Product Viscosity (cSt)
Water 1.00 PRO
Mineral Spirits 1.34
Clarke Terry 1.83
Blue Juice 1.99
Benge 1.99
Players Products 2.15
Jupiter 2.20
Roché-Thomas 2.31
Holton 2.38
OIL HYBRID 141-A7 3.02
PRO-OIL RED 3.61
Space Filler II 3.72
Al Cass 3.73
PRO-OIL BLUE 3.80
Space Filler I 5.10
SLIDE (for trombones) 5.12
Alisyn 7.59
Chart of evaporation rates:
 |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| MacMichael wrote: | | Dennis78 wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Hi
My opinion on this is that I prefer the reliability of a modern instrument. I'm not saying that all vintage or even the majority of vintage instruments are unreliable, only that I don't want to risk another unreliable one.
My 1978 Bach 37 has a great sound, but the 1st valve to a greater extent, and 2nd valve to a lesser extent, remain problematic. Holton valve oil seems to cause me less trouble, but there is still this sticking on the upstroke of the 1st valve, which drives me mad. I have replacement valve guides, new springs and it had a valve alignment not long ago, so new internal valve felts. I've also replaced the top cap rubber bumpers. This trumpet is really clean, as it has had multiple cleans with a H W Brass Saver pull through, and I have had the H W Brass Saver through all of the tubing, paying particular attention to the tubes between the valves, but it still continues to play up.
I have been advised by two different UK techs that the valve compression is very good considering the age of my trumpet, so it shouldn't need a valve job, and I don't want the valves lapped any further as it is hardly a new instrument whose valves are still in the break in stage, but the issues remain with no obvious way of resolving them, and are very frustrating.
I therefore play a modern Yamaha Xeno II, because I oil the valves every time I play, and can rely on the valves to work reliably without sticking.
Yes, probably this is an issue with one Bach Strad, but it has completely put me off older instruments.
I just cannot be doing with sticking valves any more.
Most probably sticking valves are not an issue with all or even most vintage instruments, but older valves played by probably more than one player who probably press them down slightly differently, and which may or may not have been probably maintained and oiled regularly, is too much of a risk for me after years of battling with my Bach Strad.
YMMV
All the best
Lou |
All very true and relevant. Problem valves drive me crazy |
Yes, of course, sticky valves are a pain in the ...,
but that does not necessarily mean vintage horn valves only
Hi MacMichael
Yes, I totally agree. Maybe I'm lucky, but the modern Yamaha valves don't seem to cause me any issues.
Take care
Lou
But very often, as Louise has pointed out, the different angle
at which a valve has been depressed over the years is very likely to contribute to sticky valves. |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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deleted_user_680e93b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | KRELL1960 wrote: |
Hello Lou,
I would try Alisyn Oil if you haven't for those pesky sticky valves.
It has saved me a few times.
regards,
tom |
Hi Tom
Thanks very much. I have a bottle of Alisyn oil. I can't remember if it came with my previous Sovereign or Smith Watkins K2, but I still have it. I can't say that I thought much of it, and it is very viscous (see quote below), but it is worth a try, thanks. The only issue is that I believe that it is now discontinued.
Take care
Lou
| veery715 wrote: | Courtesy MusiChem: http://www.musichem.com/articles/p_oil_e.htm
Product Viscosity (cSt)
Water 1.00 PRO
Mineral Spirits 1.34
Clarke Terry 1.83
Blue Juice 1.99
Benge 1.99
Players Products 2.15
Jupiter 2.20
Roché-Thomas 2.31
Holton 2.38
OIL HYBRID 141-A7 3.02
PRO-OIL RED 3.61
Space Filler II 3.72
Al Cass 3.73
PRO-OIL BLUE 3.80
Space Filler I 5.10
SLIDE (for trombones) 5.12
Alisyn 7.59
Chart of evaporation rates:
|
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Yes it is quite thick, but has helped me when others didn't and i was told i needed a valve job because the tech couldn't stop the valve from sticking.
long story short, i never got the valve job and the horn is fine.
It is still available in the states and online.
regards,
tom |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Benge.nut wrote: | | Shoe wrote: | In my lifetime, I've been kinda burned by buying vntage horns. In high school, I bought into the vintage craze I read about and would buy old horns, and though they played well, they didn't help me blend and learn how to balance with a section of strads and xenos and jupiters.
I ended up selling all my old horns for a modern one that helps me do everything better for my current applications.
Again, the horns I had played well, but went nessairily as viable as, say, a strad 37 was for me. Again , YMMV and I'm not exactly a great player, so other players might not of had the same issues I had blending and fitting in.
Sure they played very well, but, for where I was in my playing, age, and uses, they were not the horns for me. |
What trumpet new or vintage wouldn't blend with a "section of Bach Xenos and Jupiters"?
ive played all kinds of horns over the years and never understood this "blending" issue phenomenon people speak of. If I'm in a section and not playing lead, I play under the lead player. Support him, don't overpower him, and don't stand out. But if I'm in tune and playing in context I can blend with anybody, no matter what horn I'm using.
Never understood that statement I hear people using all the time....besides, even most vintage horns have the same Besson style design as do newer horns. Even when I play different horns like a Connstelation I can still blend in a section with anybody playing a Bach or whatever. |
Pretty much my experience also, and I honestly had not heard this "blending" thing until I started nosing around here on TH. Maybe years ago we were aware of it and just figured it was something we did automatically; I used a Schilke 14a4a mouthpiece for college jazz band but never for concert band or other legit stuff, I guess that was so we would "blend", but it was also because that 14a4a gave me a sound that was much brighter than what the college professors and conductors wanted.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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robbrand
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2014
Posts: 120
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | robbrand wrote: | Love this discussion!
As a rank amateur, I'm not really qualified to contribute - but here's one observation: you'd be hard-pressed to find any top professional playing a vintage trumpet as a first-choice horn. Those ``lifeless'' modern Yamahas, Bachs, etc are good enough for the vast majority of orchestral players and soloists. |
Define "top professional"...
If you're talking about major symphony seats then with the exception of vintage Bachs you might have a point - if you're talking about solo artists, jazzers, studio players then you'd have absolutely no trouble reeling off a long list of top pro players using vintage horns.
I'm not real hot on who's using what - but I know enough to know that that statement was wide of the mark. |
I was thinking in terms of orchestral musicians and soloists... and I would define a pro as someone who makes a living out out of playing the trumpet. I don't know about jazzers and studio musicians but I would assume if your livelihood depends on getting it right on time, every time, you'd want a dependable instrument.
I've listened to every one of the `Other Side of the Bell' podcasts - 48 episodes of interviews with trumpet players of every kind, orchestral, studio, jazz - and when asked about equipment, not one of them said their go-to horn is a 1930s Selmer/post-war Besson/1920s Conn/whatever. Each and every one of them plays on a modern instrument (BTW, I wouldn't regard a well-maintained 20-year old Bach as `vintage').
But who knows? You may well be right. As I said at the beginning of my post, I'm just an amateur and not really qualified to comment.
_________________
B&S Challenger 1 3137
Courtois 113ML
B&H Imperial Flugel
Besson USA 620 cornet |
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scipioap
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Waltham, MA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:45 am Post subject: |
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I think a lot of this has to do with endorsement for much-needed extra income - given the typical musician's income. Take John Hagstrom - Yamaha artist - but closet vintage freak. He sought out and bought my 1939 French Besson flugelhorn, long after I took it off sale, and also bid on my 1973 Olds Custom C.
Only players with their own mega-marketing appeal, like Chris Botti, would not need that extra endorsement income - and we all know what he plays.
As to why vintage is better, I believe it's a combination of that magical vintage brass/copper alloy you can't get anymore - likely laced with mercury, arsenic, and who knows what else; and that old fashioned handcraftmanship in every pro model. That's not to say you can't get that same handcraftmanship today, for example from a boutique hornmaker, but it's going to cost dearly compared to yesteryear. An analogy would be all the wood-carving you might find in antique/Victorian/turn-of-century homes - relatively ordinary back in the day, now rarely done if at all.
_________________
1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel
Last edited by scipioap on Wed May 24, 2017 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| robbrand wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | | robbrand wrote: | Love this discussion!
As a rank amateur, I'm not really qualified to contribute - but here's one observation: you'd be hard-pressed to find any top professional playing a vintage trumpet as a first-choice horn. Those ``lifeless'' modern Yamahas, Bachs, etc are good enough for the vast majority of orchestral players and soloists. |
Define "top professional"...
If you're talking about major symphony seats then with the exception of vintage Bachs you might have a point - if you're talking about solo artists, jazzers, studio players then you'd have absolutely no trouble reeling off a long list of top pro players using vintage horns.
I'm not real hot on who's using what - but I know enough to know that that statement was wide of the mark. |
I was thinking in terms of orchestral musicians and soloists... and I would define a pro as someone who makes a living out out of playing the trumpet. I don't know about jazzers and studio musicians but I would assume if your livelihood depends on getting it right on time, every time, you'd want a dependable instrument.
I've listened to every one of the `Other Side of the Bell' podcasts - 48 episodes of interviews with trumpet players of every kind, orchestral, studio, jazz - and when asked about equipment, not one of them said their go-to horn is a 1930s Selmer/post-war Besson/1920s Conn/whatever. Each and every one of them plays on a modern instrument (BTW, I wouldn't regard a well-maintained 20-year old Bach as `vintage').
But who knows? You may well be right. As I said at the beginning of my post, I'm just an amateur and not really qualified to comment. |
I wouldn't regard a 20 year old Bach as vintage either... but Mt Vernons are certainly vintage.
How old does something have to be to be considered "vintage"? Perhaps that's where the disconnect is in all of this?
Just to pick one example - do we count Chris Botti on his old Martin Committee's as a top pro using vintage equipment, or not? |
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Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| robbrand wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | | robbrand wrote: | Love this discussion!
As a rank amateur, I'm not really qualified to contribute - but here's one observation: you'd be hard-pressed to find any top professional playing a vintage trumpet as a first-choice horn. Those ``lifeless'' modern Yamahas, Bachs, etc are good enough for the vast majority of orchestral players and soloists. |
Define "top professional"...
If you're talking about major symphony seats then with the exception of vintage Bachs you might have a point - if you're talking about solo artists, jazzers, studio players then you'd have absolutely no trouble reeling off a long list of top pro players using vintage horns.
I'm not real hot on who's using what - but I know enough to know that that statement was wide of the mark. |
I was thinking in terms of orchestral musicians and soloists... and I would define a pro as someone who makes a living out out of playing the trumpet. I don't know about jazzers and studio musicians but I would assume if your livelihood depends on getting it right on time, every time, you'd want a dependable instrument.
I've listened to every one of the `Other Side of the Bell' podcasts - 48 episodes of interviews with trumpet players of every kind, orchestral, studio, jazz - and when asked about equipment, not one of them said their go-to horn is a 1930s Selmer/post-war Besson/1920s Conn/whatever. Each and every one of them plays on a modern instrument (BTW, I wouldn't regard a well-maintained 20-year old Bach as `vintage').
But who knows? You may well be right. As I said at the beginning of my post, I'm just an amateur and not really qualified to comment. |
As for guys depending on "getting it right, every time and wanting a dependable instrument"
Lead trumpet in the Airmen of Note plays an old Conn 36B and Brian NEVER misses lol. As does The second trumpet player...some old Conn
Some top call NYC guys who do studio, shows, big band work play old Benge trumpets. i.e. Dave Trigg plays an old Benge 1X, Nick Marcione plays a Benge 2X, Frank Greene plays a Benge 3X Raul Agraz plays a 6X, last I saw him.
I could list more...but don't wanna seem like a total gear head nerd.
I'd say it's pretty even split modern equipment and older horns. At least in the commercial and jazz world. I can't speak for classical guys. But I know they go bananas for Mt Vernon mouthpieces. I've seen them pay $100s of dollars for those older pieces, and I see insane prices for Mt Vernon C trumpets.
So I don't agree with the premise that vintage horns are just collectibles and don't perform as well as modern horns. Lots of working cats make a living on vintage horns. |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:56 am Post subject: |
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For me, the term "Vintage" just means trouble, most of the time. Not all of the time. I've cleaned some vintage Benges that were totally garbage players. Not all of them looked like they should be garbage, either. I've cleaned and played some other stuff, too. There was this really old Blessing, which was just "Meh." Even my own ...vintage... (oh, that hurts!) Benge 5X, when it was finally restored (with newly rebuilt valves and refit slides, lookin' great), still didn't play as well as some of the new stuff I could sample. The real downer was the one large bore 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe I had a chance to play for a few weeks, last winter. It was the "Holy Grail" of jazz horns and it had sticky valves.
BUT! There were single treasures along the way. One was a 1930 Bach 7/7 that was dynamite! $4,000.00 in gold plate. The Martin was just a valve job or maybe some better oil away from "Wow!" $4-5,000.00, I bet. AND... that lovely Chicago era ML Benge with the most incredible, wonderful upper register sound I have ever heard or have been able to access and play. Cost? "Over my dead body!"
On the other hand, I have had four recently manufactured Flip Oakes instruments that all outplayed every one of those vintage horns in every way (except for maybe the Benge) and give me a sound that continually brings compliments from listeners and players, alike. They are consistent in quality and playing characteristics, they come with superb customer service and they are supported by both the living designer and active manufacturer.
Vintage can be fun, and in some isolated examples they can be treasures, but give me the livability of a new horn every time.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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scipioap
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Waltham, MA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:25 am Post subject: |
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But Mr. Oakes charges dearly for that level of quality. In contrast, the craftsmen at the Martin factory were churning out horns with that same potential as their 'standard' product.
_________________
1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel |
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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The problem with this discussion is that there are different standards and "knowing" what people play. There are probably thousands of players in America playing essentially garage sale trumpets and making a living. Are they playing festivals, making records, appearing at your local large venue? No. They are playing local clubs in their area, they never tour, they have sold no recordings but they make great music on old horns because that is what they can afford. Those horns have occasional valve problems and you see them working them in the middle of a show and away they go playing again. They pick up their check at the end of the night or their bucket of tips and head off to the next gig.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3630
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | For me, the term "Vintage" just means trouble, most of the time. Not all of the time. I've cleaned some vintage Benges that were totally garbage players. Not all of them looked like they should be garbage, either. I've cleaned and played some other stuff, too. There was this really old Blessing, which was just "Meh." Even my own ...vintage... (oh, that hurts!) Benge 5X, when it was finally restored (with newly rebuilt valves and refit slides, lookin' great), still didn't play as well as some of the new stuff I could sample. The real downer was the one large bore 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe I had a chance to play for a few weeks, last winter. It was the "Holy Grail" of jazz horns and it had sticky valves.
BUT! There were single treasures along the way. One was a 1930 Bach 7/7 that was dynamite! $4,000.00 in gold plate. The Martin was just a valve job or maybe some better oil away from "Wow!" $4-5,000.00, I bet. AND... that lovely Chicago era ML Benge with the most incredible, wonderful upper register sound I have ever heard or have been able to access and play. Cost? "Over my dead body!"
On the other hand, I have had four recently manufactured Flip Oakes instruments that all outplayed every one of those vintage horns in every way (except for maybe the Benge) and give me a sound that continually brings compliments from listeners and players, alike. They are consistent in quality and playing characteristics, they come with superb customer service and they are supported by both the living designer and active manufacturer.
Vintage can be fun, and in some isolated examples they can be treasures, but give me the livability of a new horn every time. |
I think this proves the point that finding a good horn is the only solution - whatever its age. It can be perfectly manufactured and assembled - and play like sh@t!
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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EdMann
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: The Big Valley
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Well, good for them. Let's see:
Michael Sachs, Early Elkhart Bach 229
Carl Saunders, 60ish Benge he's had since the 60ish's
Paul Litteral (Uptown Horns), 2-25 yr old Kanstul
Brad Goode, 90 year old Vega's and Kings
Thomas Scott, 50 yr old Olds Mendez
Chris Botti
Gabriel Johnson, both on Martins
Not dissing new horns; I LOVE the line of commercial Bachs, and their newer Ebs are the best I've played. And Adams? Wow! But quite frankly, as Zig Kanstul told me, the King Liberty was one of the best designs in brass history. And you can grab my Martin from my cold, dead hands.
ed |
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MacMichael
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| scipioap wrote: | | But Mr. Oakes charges dearly for that level of quality. In contrast, the craftsmen at the Martin factory were churning out horns with that same potential as their 'standard' product. |
Insert Olds here as well.
Ok, granted, modern horns are often more reliable for sure.
Went to a studio with my band the other day and played my Carol Brass for the brighter needed for this loud fusion band with sax, on the other hand the Recording would not have given me any issues either.
Last edited by MacMichael on Wed May 24, 2017 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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