I think this can be equated to lots of things, not just musical instruments.
For instance, two weeks ago I drove a 2017 Mustang. Totally tricked out. It drove AWESOME!! Great engine, awesome interior, fast as anything and looked soooo cool.
But I've also driven a black on black, '69 Shelby Mustang a couple years ago. That car was maintained and looked to be a new car, and most everything was original.
You can't compare the two fairly. The '69 had the throaty guttural sound in the engine that new models can't match. It handled tighter and more gracefully, and when I drove it I just felt like I was a classier guy than I am
If I had the bucks and was buying a car, I'd spend the money on the '69 Shelby over a new Mustang.
Both could do the job, both are awesome vehicles and both would serve my needs. But damn.....what a machine that '69 Mustang was, and they truly DO NOT build 'em like they used to.
Trumpet playing is about the player, not the horn. Great players will sound great on any quality horn in good working condition. Quality horns in good working condition, both vintage and modern, are plentiful.
Wayne Bergeron and Willie Murillo were at my house looking at my trumpet collection. Wayne picked up my 1920's vintage Conn 58B and played a few scales. It had that 1920's characteristic sound. Then he picked up my 1933 King Silvertone, played a few scales, looked at Willie and said, "This plays like a modern horn." Then he looked at me and said, "There hasn't been much in the way of advances in trumpets since the early 1930's. Maybe a little more even scale."
Doc Severinsen was here and gave a clinic. He talked a lot about designing trumpets. Someone brought a vintage Getzen Eterna Severinsen trumpet to the clinic and asked Doc to play it. Doc played a few scales and then said, "Sometimes I think I should have just stayed with this."
Wynton used to play a Bach Strad. He's been playing a Monette now for many years. When people hear recordings of Wynton playing the Bach they say that "he sounds like Wynton." They say the same thing when they hear recordings of Wynton playing the Monette.
Modern manufacturing methods using computer technology make it easier to produce a consistent product. So, in theory, modern trumpets manufactured with computer technology should be more consistent than vintage horns that were made without computer technology. That doesn't mean modern horns are better than vintage horns. It just means that, all other things being equal, if you're buying a horn at random you're statistically more likely to get an optimal or close to optimal example if you buy a modern horn manufactured using computer technology.
What is it that makes one horn "better" than another? You can produce style, texture, articulation, rhythm and dynamics on any trumpet. Assuming a horn is a quality instrument in good working condition the idea that it's "better" or "worse" than another quality instrument in good working condition is highly subjective.
To hear trumpet players talk, the world of trumpets is precarious, "bad" trumpets are everywhere, you have to test a lot of trumpets to find a "good" one. This is a symptom of an epidemic: Blaming equipment for the shortcomings of the player. Thus, the eternal search for the "perfect" trumpet, the "perfect" mouthpiece, the "perfect" gadget.
Trumpet is a difficult instrument to master. In fact, Maynard said that no one ever truly masters the trumpet, there are always more things to learn and develop. There are no miracle trumpets, miracle mouthpieces or miracle gadgets. With the trumpet, there's only one way to make miracles happen: Develop your skills.
There are great vintage horns and not so great vintage horns. There are great modern horns and not so great modern horns. The best examples of each are equally great. The worst examples of each are equally not so great.
At the end of the day, however, the most important factor by far is the skill of the player. The best players in the world can take a horn someone says is "bad" and make it sound "good" beyond a normal player's wildest dreams. _________________ HERMOKIWI
I have become sort of a vintage trumpet junkie the last 3 years after really not having any vintage horns before that (although it is a little scary how horns you bought brand new slowly become vintage). I think the nostalgia of playing a classic trumpet model that is no longer in production is part of the draw certainly, and the thought that one of the greats played the same model. That being said I have been really amazed at how flat-out great some of these older horns play, especially after being firmly on the “new horns are vastly superior” band wagon before. I was sort of thrown for a loop too when I went to ITG last year and saw a bunch of live performances and a large number of the players I saw were playing old Bach Strads. I don’t really keep up on who plays what brand but I thought most everybody would be playing all the latest and greatest new high dollar models, nope. I didn’t really see anyone playing much vintage stuff other than Bachs though.
Anyhow I think the biggest things that dictate the horns people choose to perform on are the sound they are going for and social pressure issues, which can be huge even though people don’t often want to admit it. I think the improved technical aspects of some modern horns are still secondary to these issues for most. I also agree with the previous poster on the player being the overwhelming factor. No matter what horn I am playing I still sound like me, there are some differences in color and sometimes bigger differences in the feel of the instrument, but if the horn is halfway decent I sound like me, with the same abilities and limitations. I would say though sometimes a vintage horn just has a totally different voice and personality that can inspire you or push you in a new direction, which is really cool. _________________ Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ
I performed on a vintage horn at the ITG a few years ago. Believe me, it didn't play as well as a modern horn...
Ha, very cool Dale! Well, maybe we need to distinguish between antique and vintage. But hey, those old rotary cornets have their challenges but some of them play pretty great too. Of course with those it is always the horns fault when something goes wrong. _________________ Scodwell Boston
90's Bach Strad MLV 65GH
1950 Bach Strad 38
1969 Conn 8b Artist
1980 238 CL
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm1qCev_sfof-Bfj5MAMLrQ
I couldn't be bothered to read this entire thread, but I did read the OP and the first few responses...
Here in Chicago, there is this band that plays downtown - I think they are called the CSO. They play some old Bach trumpets from 1956. I know they are probably not very good though.
I couldn't be bothered to read this entire thread, but I did read the OP and the first few responses...
Here in Chicago, there is this band that plays downtown - I think they are called the CSO. They play some old Bach trumpets from 1956. I know they are probably not very good though.
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:31 am Post subject:
I have a Conn 1964 38B, a 1981 Bach 43*, a Yamaha 8310Z and a Jupiter 1600i. They all play great! I play the 8310Z mostly. It feels good in my hands, it plays in tune and the feedback is great. It is really personal preference.
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject:
How about this? Because back then a horn could be made that was in tune and didn't need moving slides to get there. Imagine a whole generation that played in tune and listened. _________________ Richard
My Mt. Vernon LB 25 plays different and sounds different than my early Elkhart LB 25. Is one better than the other? It depends on the player. The Mt. Vernon Bachs I have played have a characteristically different sound than the Elkhart Bachs I have played. I prefer the sound of the Mt. Vernons; the next guy may prefer the sound of the Elkharts. My mid-1960's Schilke B3's sound noticeably different that the new B3's. They do play very much the same, a testament to Schilke's quality and consistency. A blanket statement that vintage horns play better (or worse) than modern horns is just plain silly. It depends on the individual player and their perception of sound and playability. Do vintage horns have similar characteristics that differ from their modern counterparts? I think so. Is one better than the other? I don't think so.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject:
Richard III wrote:
How about this? Because back then a horn could be made that was in tune and didn't need moving slides to get there. Imagine a whole generation that played in tune and listened.
Lack of moving valve crooks is not evidence that the horn was in tune.
I am pretty sure the physics dictate that crooks that are in tune individually are not quite long enough to be in tune in combination. Hence the need to lip notes in tune or adjust the slides.
I am sure that generation was much better at lipping those notes in tune than those of us that have moving crooks. For me, I will go with the sliding crooks over lipping every time.
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject:
Louise Finch wrote:
Thanks. I suppose when it comes down to it, brass instruments (except trombones) are valve instruments, and valve action is therefore integral.
Slides can be just as finicky and problematic as valves, and they are a lot more exposed to slight damage than a valve block.
I play a nondescript Blessing student trombone most of the time because the slide is smooth and fast and extremely reliable and problem-free. I have "better" trombones but they require more or sometimes constant maintenance to get even close to the same smooth action. If I was playing in bone in a group, maybe I'd put that effort in, but for teaching I'll got with the excellent action every time. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 08 Aug 2012 Posts: 368 Location: Waltham, MA
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject:
LittleRusty wrote:
Lack of moving valve crooks is not evidence that the horn was in tune
When I was researching 19th century cornetist Henry C. Brown, whose personal cornet I acquired, I found this interesting letter to the editor printed in a publication called The Musical Messenger in 1916:
Quote:
Twenty years ago I was a pupil of Henry Brown, of Boston, then an old man, but doing brilliant work in the Tremont Theater. Sometimes I would sit in the orchestra with him. Sometimes I had substitute work, and sometimes I played in a stage band at that theater. The second cornet player, named Herrick, a mighty good and correct man, was evidently one of these supersensitives in the matter of pitch. He talked much about these false tones. To correct them he had a rod soldered to each of the first and third valve slides. The rods terminated in rings into which he placed his thumb and little finger of the left hand to move the slides as occasion required. I used to watch with awe and wonder for the slides to twitch out and in, but could never detect it. I know Brown used the cornet in A sometimes, but, as The Critic says, he was indifferent about tuning his slides, yet always in tune.
_________________ 1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject:
scipioap wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Lack of moving valve crooks is not evidence that the horn was in tune
When I was researching 19th century cornetist Henry C. Brown, whose personal cornet I acquired, I found this interesting letter to the editor printed in a publication called The Musical Messenger in 1916:
Quote:
Twenty years ago I was a pupil of Henry Brown, of Boston, then an old man, but doing brilliant work in the Tremont Theater. Sometimes I would sit in the orchestra with him. Sometimes I had substitute work, and sometimes I played in a stage band at that theater. The second cornet player, named Herrick, a mighty good and correct man, was evidently one of these supersensitives in the matter of pitch. He talked much about these false tones. To correct them he had a rod soldered to each of the first and third valve slides. The rods terminated in rings into which he placed his thumb and little finger of the left hand to move the sligdes as occasion required. I used to watch with awe and wonder for the slides to twitch out and in, but could never detect it. I know Brown used the cornet in A sometimes, but, as The Critic says, he was indifferent about tuning his slides, yet always in tune.
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject:
I really like my New Proportions short cornet! Great valves, sound, blow-its got it all except for a mobile slide. Which is why I use my little Bach the most _________________ a few different ones
Joined: 16 Sep 2011 Posts: 118 Location: Wilmington, De
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
At the end of the day, however, the most important factor by far is the skill of the player. The best players in the world can take a horn someone says is "bad" and make it sound "good" beyond a normal player's wildest dreams.
Well said reminds me of the story about the Violin "In the masters hands". _________________ Shires Destino III
1971 Bach Vindabona
1947 Martin Committee (Large Bore)
1935 NY Bach 26-59 silver plate
My two cents is play the horn that best fits your needs/plays the best for YOU-be it vintage, new, large or medium bore, lacquer, silver- whatever.
There are differences between vintage and new-as to which is better is subjective imo. I play my current Committee because of how it responds and slots in the upper register, not because it's vintage, or the horn that Miles or Botti play. It's also the 3rd medium bore Committee that I have had-it plays differently that the other two. If I found another horn that plays better I'd play that, be it old or new.
I had a great trumpet teacher who told me "don't fall in love with your particular horn-it's just a tool." _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
On the topic of old versus new, old is no better than new new is no better than old.
In the old days they blended, but now blending is not possible? I suspect that this is more a mouthpiece issue, I have blended with a trumpet in a line of cornets, I used a big deep mouthpiece to do it and sounded like a cornet.
The valves are no issue, my daily players are instruments dated from 1920 to 1950, and I occasionally use a 1977 instrument, most had sticking valves, I cleaned them until they didnt stick anymore.
Sticking valves in my experience is ancient lack of care leading to crud build up and this crud is just not noticed. Did Harry James or Louis Armstrong have sticky valves, no. Could it be that their valves were clean so they didnt stick.
My 1923 instrument was examined and played by a professional 3 days ago, he told me the valves were excellent and the instrument was a great player with gorgeous tone. Clean valves good mouthpiece choice.
All my instruments have been examined and played by decent players and they all said the valves are among the best they have played.
These are well used instruments and I play on them for 6 hours a day so I am not a casual player and any valve issues would surface and there are none.
Professionals want reliable gear and easily fixed gear and they earn the bucks so buying new gear to build a career on just makes sense. That doesnt mean that old gear is rubbish it just means they have a professional approach.
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject:
HERMOKIWI:"What is it that makes one horn "better" than another? You can produce style, texture, articulation, rhythm and dynamics on any trumpet. Assuming a horn is a quality instrument in good working condition the idea that it's "better" or "worse" than another quality instrument in good working condition is highly subjective.
To hear trumpet players talk, the world of trumpets is precarious, "bad" trumpets are everywhere, you have to test a lot of trumpets to find a "good" one. This is a symptom of an epidemic: Blaming equipment for the shortcomings of the player. Thus, the eternal search for the "perfect" trumpet, the "perfect" mouthpiece, the "perfect" gadget."
True, it's highly subjective, but you know some horns are better than others. They just are, and it can't necessarily be measured, or weighed, or otherwise detected. They just are better. And you have to play well enough to figure it out. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
reminds me of the story about the Violin "In the masters hands".