Mouthpiece drill size ca. mid-1950s among hard bop players?

[kenagy]

Hello TH brothers and sisters:

Would you have expected modern "hard bop" jazz trumpet players of the years 1954-1962 to play mouthpieces that had throats opened up significantly or even at all?

Was that something that players messed around with? I don't know how concerned people were with horns and mouthpieces during this phase.

For example, Lee Morgan is reported to have played a Bach 6C, a fairly typical medium sized mouthpiece for it's day; Would you expect him to have played said mouthpiece with a modification such as a larger throat? Would you consider that within the realm of possibility, or unlikely? What are your thoughts?

Of course, I know that jazz players have experimented with modifications (and larger throat sizes) historically at many other times before and after this, going back to what lead players in the big band era did, what beboppers did, but I feel like this period we don't know as much about mouthpiece choice as maybe we do about horn choices. This could be just me though.

Brad Goode? Jeff Helgesen? anyone? help me out, please.

THANKS!

Pete
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Peter Kenagy
Trumpet
Boston, Mass.

[bg]

To the contrary, many jazz players of that era played tighter throats.

The standard throat on an Al Cass mouthpiece was a #28. These were favored by Red Rodney, Blue Mitchell, Booker Little, Howard McGhee, Nat Adderly, Kenny Dorham, Thad Jones, Art Farmer and Others. Roy Eldridge's Al Cass was a #29. Dizzy's was, in fact, drilled out to a #25.

Another popular Bebop piece was the Rudy Muck 17c. This was also a #28 drill and was played by Charlie Shavers and Fats Navarro, among others. Clifford Brown played the NY Bach 17c2, Bach's clone of the popular Muck. I don't know if this one had a #27 or #28.

Very few players played Bach Mouthpieces. Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard and Woody Shaw come to mind first. Ira Sullivan and Paul Serrano both played on Bach 10 1/2c. By the 1970's it was more common to see jazz players moving in this direction. I do not know if these people enlarged their drills, to directly address your inquiry. Sorry.

I remember being a young player playing on a deep cup and large drill. (I was living in Chicago, after all.) Red Rodney looked at my mouthpiece one night, after I whined a bit about my chops. He scoffed and said, "Come on man; all jazz players play small equipment." This was the first time anyone had EVER said anything remotely like that to me. What's the saying - "We grow to soon old, and too late smart."
_________________
Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com

[kenagy]

Dear Brad,

Thank you for your reply. I've learned a lot from your previous posts and writing on the subject, including about playing small mouthpieces for bebop and playing small bore horns as well. Personally, I've managed to make the Bach 10 3/4 CW and EW work in a small group setting (a revelation!), and based on what I've read those are copies of the NY Bach 17C1 and 17C2 (which are based on Rudy Muck). So I believe what you preach. It's a significant step towards surviving in a bebop setting, assuming you have the language.

On that note, and off original topic, I wonder how faithfully the three mouthpieces that are supposedly identical, or at least copies, actually relate to one another: Rudy Muck 17C >>> NY Bach 17C1 >>> current Bach 10 3/4 CW. Have you played all three. I imagine you could verify how similar they actually are. Thoughts?

Here's something interesting that I've discovered lately that I would like to share and maybe you can offer your take, Brad: Miles Davis, after his hiatus in 1954, came back to NYC and recorded on 3/6/54 six tracks that would become his Blue Note Vol. 3 album (Later released on CD on Volume 1). On this session he played Clifford Brown's Blessing Artist Model, I know this because I've researched the photos from the sessions. There are pictures from the session, of Miles playing a Blessing Artist model with the same little string on the third valve slide that Clifford had on there, and photos of Clifford himself standing with Miles at the piano talking to Horace Silver. From the pictures I can't tell exactly, but it looks like Miles is not playing his Heim, but most likely a mouthpiece that belonged with Clifford's trumpet (looks like a Bach, can't tell about wide rim). Wouldn't it be interesting if he was playing not only Clifford's horn, but one of Clifford's 17C1 mouthpieces? On this session Miles sounds great, more coherent than usual. Is this a product of seeing Clifford at the session? Of having rested at home and quit herion? Of playing with Percy Heath and Blakey and Horace? Of playing a small mouthpiece that allowed him to express his ideas? He enters rather confidently in the upper register. Well, all that is up for speculation, but Miles good. A few days later he borrowed a different horn to record "Walkin'" and "Blue 'n' Boogie" for Prestige. Anyway, do you think on the tracks from 3/6/54 ("Take Off," "Lazy Susan," "Well You Needn't," etc.) that Miles is playing Clifford's mouthpiece? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. (I have heard Miles recorded with Billy Eckstine playing an A above high C on the bridge to "Good Bait" in 1946 on a Chicago concert.)

In closing, I'm still intrigued to know if the fact of Lee Morgan, Freddie, and I'm sure many others, playing Bach middle of the road sizes was a conscious choice or more a matter of that's what various classical teachers recommended in the name of creating a more band-orchestra sound.

Do you know what Al Cass model K.D. played or what he played pre-Al Cass??

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[bg]

Hi Peter,

I believe Kenny Dorham's Al Cass was a custom-made model.

I really wouldn't have any way of guessing Miles' equipment choices from listening to him. He did have exceptional high chops, which seemed to wax and wane throughout his career... I can relate! LOL He's on fire on the recently released Stockholm 1960 concert, just attacking high notes cleanly with an amazingly centered tone. I really think the mouthpiece choice didn't make as big a difference for him as did his practice/performance schedule.

Regarding "surviving in a bebop setting", there is, of course, more than one way to approach it. I've just found that having a resistant set-up allows me more control, speed, ease of attack and freedom of flexibility. Having said that, getting used to the resistance is really the key. If you're used to a more open set-up, added resistance can be perceived as restrictive. Knowing that some of our heroes functioned well that way probably gave me resolution to stick with it, while finding out how it would work.
_________________
Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com

[kenagy]

Brad,

Thanks for your view on this subject. It's valuable information. I hope your essays will reappear online on your website so people can read them again. I noticed they were all taken down the other day. I'd gladly buy them in book form.

And yes, that Miles 1960 concert (from 3/2/60) in Stockholm is wonderful. I had the good fortune to buy it on CD in 1995, as well as some of the other concerts from around this time. Blew me away listening to live versions of "All Blues," "So What," and such when I was in high school and had listened to Kind of Blue enough to appreciate how the band could evolve in such a short period of time. Glad there is good music in this world!

[bg]

The essays are still there:

http://www.bradgoode.com/reads/what-i-think-blog/

I did stop maintaining this website about ten years ago. I'm not sure why I still have it!
_________________
Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com