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Double Tongue Speed



 
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Double Tongue Speed Reply with quote

So, I just got my music in the mail for a concert next month, and I need some advice. One of the pieces we're doing is Slalom by Cater Pann. My biggest issue is my double tongue speed. Our MD will be going a bit slower than marked (184), quarter note = 168-172. At this point, it's impossible.

Where I need advice is why. While I do have to admit that I've not been practicing my double tonguing lately, in the past, without more practice, I could go much faster. I'm sure we've all heard the saying "If you can't say it, you can't play it." What's weird is I can "say" it no problem, but when I actually try to play, everything slows down dramatically. This tells me my tongue isn't the problem.

Could it be something in my basic sound production that's causing my tongue speed to slow down? The first rehearsal is June 13th, so I don't have very much time to solve this issue. Considering the principal player doesn't have a particularly fast tongue either is going to make this very interesting. Maybe we can bribe the MD to go slower.
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find better double tongue speed varies with the amount of air I'm using. Too little and it's sloppy and poorly defined, too much and it slows down and articulation is inconsistent.

Not a problem when I "say it"... I can say Flight of the Bumble Bee like nobody's business
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McVouty
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asuming you are playing 16th notes 172 is not overly fast for double tonguing.

You need to do some speed work with the metronome. Take a 16th note tonguing drill like the end of Clarkes setting up drills. Start at 112 bpm and play single tongue. Keep going up in increments of 4bpm until you cant go any further. Dial back down to 112 and do the same again double tongue. Play very softly and go for evenesss of tone rtaher than too much attack - play all in one breath as per instructions. Speed comes with economy of movement both from the embouchure and the tongue - its a technique thng rather than a strength thing, so perservere and you should get there.

Good luck!

Cheers

Carl
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always found that tonguing speed it affected most by how hard you tongue. Folks that struggle typically have a particularly hard T or K, and frequently cutting off the air with the tongue so it comes out Tut-Kut. Softening the syllable and not stopping the air with the tongue will make a big difference. If you aim for a slow duuu-guuu tonguing for a while, it's not hard to work that up to a good clip. Just barely bump the air, never stop it. Once that works you can work on making the articulation more percussive as is needed.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Tongue Speed Reply with quote

tim_wolf wrote:
Could it be something in my basic sound production that's causing my tongue speed to slow down?

Exactly. If the embouchure isn't responsive, we tend to articulate harder to produce the sound. That makes articulation heavy and slow.

Don't just work on articulation to prepare this piece. Also work in some very soft sound production drills. Here are some great resources:

Franquin Complete Method
Shuebruk Lip Trainers
Daniel Special Studies

Franquin has some great multiple tonguing drills too. Good luck!
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips all. You know, sometimes just plain ole' practice can teach us so much.

I'm doing a very simple exercise; four measures of sixteenths, on low C on C trumpet, very softly. I put it into Sibelius, mainly so I can up my speed by tenths of a beat.

The three main things I've learned is:

The tongue movement must be absolutely minimal, as already suggested.
The "K" syllable must be as far front as possible.
The most important item, and this is why I can tongue faster off horn than on, is the lips must be touching. I've found that if there is the slightest bit of separation, I airball on the "K." Of course, speed will be impossible if the "K" isn't speaking instantaneously. When I get it right, it's so effortless.

Yea, this is terribly boring, but I'd rather be bored now than humiliated later.
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ttrumpett
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you fluttertongue? Try fluttertonguing the passages alternating with the double tonguing. I find that when I get my flutter working well, especially at quiet dynamic levels, my normal playing is easier and sounds better.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all in your air flow, not your tongue. Step one is to SAY the passages you are fretting over, rather than play them. If you can say it, you can pay it. Then, make sure you have sufficient air flow, which can be done as suggested by flutter tonguing the passage.

(It's a rather neat technique for teaching kids to blow properly. They like making that sound and being different/annoying)

If you can do both, start from a tempo comfortable position and add speed. Go a fair way PAST the conductor's stated tempo, then sit back and enjoy the ride!

cheers

Andy
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bnsd wrote:
I find better double tongue speed varies with the amount of air I'm using. Too little and it's sloppy and poorly defined, too much and it slows down and articulation is inconsistent.


+1

I've also found that understanding where your neutral mouth shape is for you can help. Without overthinking it "the 6 notes" has been incredibly valuable to me in finding more natural tone production. In turn, everything has become easier on the trumpet.
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Last edited by kevin_soda on Mon May 29, 2017 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ttrumpett wrote:
Can you fluttertongue? Try fluttertonguing the passages alternating with the double tonguing. I find that when I get my flutter working well, especially at quiet dynamic levels, my normal playing is easier and sounds better.


I haven't heard you, of course, but there's no way my flutter tonguing could possibly be a substitute for or even an enhancement of my double tonguing.

Maybe it's because my flutter tongue technique sucks.

Brad
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Pete
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practicing double tonguing for me: I vary the articulations to see what works best for what I need to play. I usually think of doing double tonging more legato when playing faster, it seem to help me playing faster with less tension. Experiment!

Pete
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
ttrumpett wrote:
Can you fluttertongue? Try fluttertonguing the passages alternating with the double tonguing. I find that when I get my flutter working well, especially at quiet dynamic levels, my normal playing is easier and sounds better.


I haven't heard you, of course, but there's no way my flutter tonguing could possibly be a substitute for or even an enhancement of my double tonguing.

Maybe it's because my flutter tongue technique sucks.

Brad

I think it's being suggested that the nominal tongue position and movement of flutter tonguing may be the same for a successful double tongue. I think there may be some truth to that though that's not quite how I approach it.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
ttrumpett wrote:
Can you fluttertongue? Try fluttertonguing the passages alternating with the double tonguing. I find that when I get my flutter working well, especially at quiet dynamic levels, my normal playing is easier and sounds better.


I haven't heard you, of course, but there's no way my flutter tonguing could possibly be a substitute for or even an enhancement of my double tonguing.

Maybe it's because my flutter tongue technique sucks.

Brad


Or rather than what Cheiden said, the idea is to get used to air moving through the passage, so the tongue doesn't get jammed up. Another way to do this is Bill Adam's blowing bubbles trick
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