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Triple Tonguing



 
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bendavis1975
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Triple Tonguing Reply with quote

I continue to work on my double and triple tonguing daily using several different techniques. One is going very slowly and another is doing simple K tongue exercises. I also have an exercise that was given to me by one of the Dallas Symphony players that really is effective. But it is dang near impossible to keep up with Hakin Hardenberger playing the triple tongued section of Intrada. Like just about everything else with trumpet, 75 to 90% of it is probably mental. But does anybody have things that they have learned on their own or from other teachers that have been very effective for them? I sure would be interested in hearing about them.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is really anything else to do except what you are doing. Just keep in mind that this is technique that isn't going to built itself in a short period of time - it's going to take a while before you get it where you are happy with it, and you'll have to maintain it for the rest of the time you continue to play trumpet.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I don't think there is really anything else to do except what you are doing. Just keep in mind that this is technique that isn't going to built itself in a short period of time - it's going to take a while before you get it where you are happy with it, and you'll have to maintain it for the rest of the time you continue to play trumpet.
Rats! I just don't see why we can't learn something and then be DONE with it!!

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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Triple Tonguing Reply with quote

bendavis1975 wrote:
But it is dang near impossible to keep up with Håkan Hardenberger playing the triple tongued section of Intrada.

Cha! Those are some lofty goals!

bendavis1975 wrote:
But does anybody have things that they have learned on their own or from other teachers that have been very effective for them? I sure would be interested in hearing about them.


I've been working on multiple tonguing drills from the Franquin Method. He suggests you practice inverting the patterns so that the "ta" and "ka" syllables switch places. So instead of doing a duple pattern as "ta-ka-ta-ka ta----, ta-ka-ta-ka ta----," for example, you'd make it "ka-ta-ka-ta ka----, ka-ta-ka-ta ka----". Then you'd do it the normal way. Then you'd switch back to the inverted pattern, alternating until you can do either equally well.

This trains the tongue to act efficiently, but mostly it trains the brain to allow the syllables to be used in any pattern you choose.

For triple tonguing, you'd practice exercises with the normal pattern: "ta-ta-ka ta---, ta-ta-ka ta---", but then you could mix it up with a duple pattern, like "ka-ta-ka ta---, ka-ta-ka ta---", for example. (For me, this was mind-boggling, but it is pretty dang efficient once my brain would let me do it.)

The goal is to make the syllables equally consistent and reliable, sort of like an ambidextrous athlete who can throw or bat with either hand. Not that you'd play them inverted in performance, but these drills would make the "ka" syllable more agile so you could use it in any pattern that feels efficient for a particular phrase.

Franquin also summarized the multiple-tonguing guidance from his predecessors (Dauverné, Forestier and Arban), which is an interesting read. Since they didn't really agree on an approach, I guess that led Franquin to decide that the best approach is to make the "ka" as strong and as independent as the "ta" and to free your mind so you can use them in any pattern.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Triple Tonguing Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
... the best approach is to make the "ka" as strong and as independent as the "ta" and to free your mind so you can use them in any pattern.

As George Clinton taught us, free your mind and your tongue will follow.
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ztay
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Syllables Reply with quote

What syllables are you using when playing?
For triple tonguing this is especially important.
I have used both Tu Tu Ku and Tu Ku Tu-with more ease of playing and success with the latter-give it a try!
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One concept I use and teach is to learn the musical/melodic line first and play through it at the tempo you aspire to reach. So, in the case of the triplet section in Intrada (I'm assuming Honegger), play the triplets as a smooth, melodic line in single quarter notes and learn to shape the melody with your wind, even slurring the passage if you can. (The same concept would work on Unesco Legende, or even Arban Carnival of Venice, etc.) Once you have established the melodic line and tempo, try to introduce the triple tongued figures, keeping everything else the same and paying special attention to the melodic line, shape and content rather than the triplets. Don't expect to "hammer" every syllable, in fact, these should be a light as possible. If you muddle at first, continue but work for more clarity as you progress. The same process works well for me when using embellishments such as turns, grace notes, trills and the like.

I find that with some, myself included, a very slow and precise approach will often get me a very slow and precise result- not that which I am attempting to perform. I must be able to imagine, or visualize myself being able to perform that which I am striving for. If I feel it is out of reach, I'll usually never get there. I find this visualization method best if I first deal with the melodic content, up to tempo. About like baking the cake before trying to put on the frosting, or worrying about how to do the ribs before I worry about the BBQ sauce. Good luck.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just say Da Ga Da or Da Da Ga
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Just say Da Ga Da or Da Da Ga

I agree that using softer syllables is the key to speedy tonguing. And by way of practice. I was taught to play the Clarke Technical Studies. Each week do one study (in all keys) For two weeks use one tonguing model then go to another tonguing model.

Here are the models:
Slur all
Tongue all
Sturs- Tongue 2
Double tongue
Triple tongue (the studies that make sense)
K-tongue

Never play faster than you can reasonably execute. This guarantees that the K-tongue weeks will be the worst of your life but stick with it.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Just say Da Ga Da or Da Da Ga


To do that literally would be to activate the vocal chords during the beginning of each articulation (that's the only difference between a T attack and a D attack, or alternatively, between a K attack and a hard G attack). I think what you mean is in the figurative sense, to soften the attacks.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Just say Da Ga Da or Da Da Ga


To do that literally would be to activate the vocal chords during the beginning of each articulation (that's the only difference between a T attack and a D attack, or alternatively, between a K attack and a hard G attack).


No, that's still wrong, no matter how many times you say it. The activation of vocal chords is NOT the only difference between the t/k and the d/g sounds. Whispering is a common counter-example to your claim. Most English-speakers have no trouble distinguishing a T sound from a D sound when hearing a speaker who is whispering with no use of the vocal chords.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go with MM55, as the written syllables do not have to line up with our speech patterns. After all, how many in the US speak French with the Correct accent as would Aruban have done?

The way double tonguin G was described back in late baroque times was 'the-ghe-the-ghe'. Running 16ths are also described as 'ti-ri-ti-ri'...

So has been said, biliary to annunciate the passage, to blow it as long tones, to have an efficient setup, and above all to practice and believe are critical to paying these passages which annoy me all the time. 😉😉😉

Cheers

Andy
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