C Trumpet, Large Bore, Going Sharp on High G

scottseward · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2011 Posts: 14

Help! I'm trying to figure this C trumpet thing out. I play on a Yamaha Chicago C and Bb. Mouthpiece is a GR67c** converted for sleeves by Matt Frost. I'm using the equivalent of a Reeves 5 on the C, and a little less gap on the Bb. But no matter what piece I use on my C, I hit G above the staff and go very sharp. I tried every stock mouthpiece I own with a tuner...

This only happens on my C, Bb plays very comfortably. I feel like the large bore on the C trumpet is the culprit, but I'm not sure how to balance my gear. I feel less endurance and less range on the C, e.g., I can play a high D comfortably on the Bb, less so a high C on C trumpet.

Confused as to what to try next - larger Gap on the C? More efficient leadpipe? I'm very comfortable on my Bb. Thanks in advance.

Crazy Finn · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject:

It's a C. They're quirky.
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Craig Swartz · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject:

Try pulling the tuning slide some more- I'd bet you're on the high side the entire time on your C. Are you playing it much? There is some acclimation. I play on a 9445CHS and it's a great instrument. Good luck.

scottseward · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2011 Posts: 14

I play every day, and I do love the instrument, just can't figure out why my Bb plays so much easier. Thanks for the replies

a.kemp · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:31 pm Post subject:

How long have you played C trumpet, compared with Bb?

The last thing I'd do is mess with the horn. The Yamaha Chicago is one of the best and most in tune C trumpets out there.

Your mouthpiece has a large throat entrance and large backbore. Could be too big (although, generally it's odd that it's not pitchy on the Bb where many people like a smaller threat and backbore)

Most likely, constant work with the horn is all you need. Don't just practice on it. Play it in ensembles. A C slots differently from a Bb. Also, your ears may be fighting themselves if they're grounded in Bb trumpet.

dr_trumpet

scottseward · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2011 Posts: 14

Thank you all. I am a comeback player, but have played a C for many years. This has always been a struggle. I feel like my playing has stabilized now, however, and that a careful look at my setup is in order. It seems I run counter to the norm. Like maybe a tighter backboard or smaller throats on thC trumpet will help. I like the suggestion of not using the tuner and going for a similar feel on each horn. Thanks again

dr_trumpet · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject:

kehaulani

dr_trumpet

Andy Del · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:50 am Post subject:

You may wish to consider the obvious. If every mouthpiece, every time has the same issue, it isn't the mouthpiece, but the horn.

Try a different C trumpet... For not very much, you can get a Kanstul/Besson. You may well be very surprised!

Cheers

Andy
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dstdenis · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:16 am Post subject:

gstump · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934

The 6th partial in the overtone series is sharp by nature (physics). A mouthpiece can exacerbate the issue as well as inadequate compromises made by the manufacturer.

I hope I am not being Captain obvious but blowing straight ahead on a trumpet without knowing the inherent intonation tendencies of a brass tube can lead one astray.

My tight mouthpieces bring out the worst in inherent trumpet intonation. That is why I use bigger back bores on smaller horns. It took years of stubbornness to figure that out due to my thick skull.

Best of luck
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a.kemp · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:29 am Post subject:

Be careful to not go too big on a c trumpet throat.

A GR67C** is a free blowing mouthpiece with an open backbore and an opened theist entrance compared to the c*. It's very much geared towards c trumpet already.

You can ask GR what his thoughts are. Wonder what he'd think about your sleeves on the mouthpieces!

johntpt · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:32 am Post subject:

Scott-

There is something about that G on almost every C trumpet out there. For me it's often more of a problem when I need to play soft. When playing out at full volume the G can be "tamed" a bit easier, but at soft volumes it is a challenge!

I wouldn't get too deep into the mouthpiece throat thing at this point. That road leads to a mindset that any and all problems need to be attacked by changing mouthpieces or horns, etc. Listen carefully, use a tuner for feedback, and spend some time teaching yourself to do what you need to do to play the G in tune. There is no magic mouthpiece, or mpc alteration, that will solve these issues.

JU

Andy Cooper · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:15 am Post subject:

Of the stock mouthpieces you have tried - were some of them Yamaha's such as the 17B4 and 17C4 - they have slightly smaller backbores.

1. Have a friend play your C while you listen and check with a tuner. Don't tell them of the problem with G.
2. Check with GR and tell them the model of Yamaha you have.
3. Check with Matt Frost - there might be a backbore solution - he wrote a niffy dissertation on the effects of changing different sections of the backbore.
4. Try a different tuning slide. See if M/K has anything for trial in either smaller or larger ID.
5. Check the Stomvi site on the intonation effects of too little or too much gap.

http://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

6. Review TH past discussion on gap and Yamaha trumpets - here's one
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1476335

jaysonr · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:45 am Post subject:

I agree with much of what has already been said here. a GR C** setup is already a good setup for a C trumpet. While the throat bore at it's smallest point is a 27, it has a very open throat exponent and a very open backbore. I'm a little surprised it works so well on Bb. I'm wondering if you tried a C* on Bb if that would then bring the C** more into balance on the C? Like, maybe you are used to compensating for a pieces that's a bit open for your Bb and it makes you over compensate on the C?

Again, that goes into another rabbit tail, and like John said and others have said, that is likely not the best place to go.

You have what is a well made, well in-tune C, and all C trumpets have that tendency to some extend. I recommend what others have said, just play the C as much as possible for a while, which gives you a chance to work up your Bb transposition to a level of second nature while you are at it, and revisit the idea in about a month or so.

Best of luck to ya!
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jaysonr · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:54 am Post subject:

Also, since you are dealing with GR mouthpieces, please reach out to Brian Scriver. He's on the forum, or you can e-mail him from the GR website. I say this because I don't know that he plays close attention to this particular area of the forum. He's only 2nd to GR in knowledge about GR pieces, and would be one of the best people to help you make the player -> mouthpiece -> horn match. Shoot a couple of videos for him, and he'll give you spot on advice!

Good luck!
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kehaulani · Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:47 am Post subject:

Al - thanks.
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scottseward · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2011 Posts: 14

I have talked with Brian at GR - very helpful.

I think what this comes down to is that I have always been more comfortable on Bb. I took a lesson from Mark Inouye a few years ago, and he made that comment. I wanted to deny the truth, because I want to sound at ease on a C, but I still struggle.

I went through a period of experimentation with Monette, and the Prada throats caused all sorts of problems. When I first tried the GR, it seemed to have the right balance of throat opening and backbone. I tried the sleeves, because I thought they might be the elusive answer for C trumpet.

I know that I am probably trying to many things, but I am 50 years old and have played since I was 8. I went to music school, where because I was an ed. major, my education was geared more toward learning music, rather than breaking down my playing.

I'm not ready to give up, but this is a tremendous source of frustration. I recognize that I am not the most efficient player, but I don't think my equipment helps me, since I seem to have found a set-up and comfort level with the Bb trumpet. Thanks again for the advice