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Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 145
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: Yamaha Cornet and short British cornet mouthpiece |
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Hello everyone. I have an issue I am trying to resolve and have had little success so far. I play a Yamaha cornet and use a short shank British brass band cornet mouthpiece. With this combination the horn plays very very sharp. In fact my tuning slide is almost half way out just to bring close to centre. The sound is great however pulling the tuning slide out that far creates slotting issues. Has anyone dealt with this issue successfully?
Thank you |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Since no one is answering, I'll say that I've used that combination and never had a problem both with Bb and Eb Yamaha cornets. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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dmamazon Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 177 Location: Hilliard, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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My brass band owns 2 xenos....I have played them both and
anytime I used a short british style mpc(which is all the time) it required
quite a bit more pull on the mts. It didn't really mess up the slots, however.
The only thing that helped is when I switched to a "Sparx" mouthpiece..which is a normal length cornet mouthpiece. I have since switched back to Alliance mouthpieces and no longer play the band owned Xenos lol.
Either way, the slots are going to be way different than a trumpet. I often have to remind myself of this....for me buzzing the cornet mpc helps remind me to really zero on the pitches and the slots take care of themselves.
I seem to remember having to pull out almost 2 inches on the xenos lol. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like an adapter or a shank modification could fix the problem.
FWIW I have a short shank Yamaha cornet piece that just disappears in my old Conn cornet. The Yamaha long shank pieces fit about right.
Are you sure the cornet you have is designed for the short shank you're using?
Here's an adapter that extends a cornet piece to lower a picc by a half step. This may not work in your situation but perhaps there's something similar that would.
http://www.bobreeves.com/products/accessories/adapters.htm _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: |
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What' an "mts" please? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | What' an "mts" please? |
I'm assuming it's an abbreviation for "main tuning slide" from the context? |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Yamaha Cornet and short British cornet mouthpiece |
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Jabroni wrote: | The sound is great however pulling the tuning slide out that far creates slotting issues |
Slotting issues compared with what?
It's going to slot looser than your average trumpet with a C-cupped mouthpiece if you're using a deep V cup on a cornet (and even moreso on a flugelhorn)....
Is that an "issue"? Well, if you're expecting to be able to walk straight into it without having to work at it, it might seem like it to begin with.
Stick the slide in the right place (to play in tune), practice the cornet and see whether you develop a "knack" for playing the upper register on the cornet - it will feel different, but you'll pick it up fine if you give it time.
(I will agree, however, with posts above saying that the longer cornet mouthpieces do tend to make the slots a bit more defined above the staff - I'm a fan of the GR#7 cup and the Curry BBC cup). |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: |
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What short-shank mouthpiece are you using? I've never had that problem with any I've used. A big, deep, open mouthpiece will tend to play flat, so they are made shorter to compensate. Usually, I can go back and forth between something like a Bach 3C and a Wick 4 without needing to move the tuning slide at all. Like TKSop said, there's a different technique to playing a deep BB-style mouthpiece, and you may be pinching to play it which is raising your pitch. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 145
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: MP |
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It is an ACB Mount Vernon 3C British Cornet mothpiece |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
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yes to the person who said the slide should stay the same pretty much when going from a long shank to short shank mouthpiece. A short shank should have a real deep cup, and the long shank should have a Trumpet shaped cup (3c, 1.5 c etc).
If the deep V cup is mated to a long shank it should be flat. And vice versa.
If you are pulling out two inches..... I bet 5 bucks your water key is leaking _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: Re: MP |
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Jabroni wrote: | It is an ACB Mount Vernon 3C British Cornet mothpiece |
I don't know the throat and backbore specs for those pieces, but generally, if you have a 3C cup on a short mouthpiece, you'll have to pull the tuning slide out more than usual. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: Re: MP |
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Jabroni wrote: | It is an ACB Mount Vernon 3C British Cornet mothpiece |
Hmm,
I briefly had an ACB 4A (I think) short cornet mouthpiece - desperately wanted to love it, cracking rim and sound but... Well I don't have it anymore |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Let me suggest the obvious - have your brass tech make you a tuning slide with longer tubes. That takes care of the extended larger ID caused by pulling the original slide. You could also have short pieces of male tuning slide cut and insert them to remove the gap - but getting them out becomes a problem. I tell you that from experience.
Then again - I have run into problems with shank diameter with some of the older Dennis Wick cornet mouthpieces. Check with another Wick and check with another brand of BB style mpc.
Are you the original owner of the new cornet? The reason I mention it, I had a student Yamaha 233. I had the opposite problem - everything played flat. I fixed that with a jeweler's saw... |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Yamaha Cornet and short British cornet mouthpiece |
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Jabroni wrote: | Hello everyone. I have an issue I am trying to resolve and have had little success so far. I play a Yamaha cornet and use a short shank British brass band cornet mouthpiece. With this combination the horn plays very very sharp. In fact my tuning slide is almost half way out just to bring close to centre. The sound is great however pulling the tuning slide out that far creates slotting issues. Has anyone dealt with this issue successfully?
Thank you |
Hi Jabroni
I will post my experiences in this regard with with my Yamaha Xeno cornet. I've just measured my main tuning slide for you. The legs are 6cm long. I have my slide pulled out around 2cm (so a 1/3 rather than the almost half which you are having to do), compared to just under a 1cm on all my other instruments. This has always been the case, and I've just accepted it as a feature of this cornet.
Regarding slotting, I'd say that my cornet has pretty flexible slotting, which I really like. I wouldn't say that I have any slotting issues, except for the high A which doesn't slot overly great, but this is a pretty common issue in my opinion with short model cornets.
Regarding intonation, although perfectly acceptable, I find my Xeno cornet slightly worse in this regard than my other instruments, which is most noticeable in comparison to my Xeno II trumpet, which I find to have excellent intonation.
I have always however presumed that this is a feature of the rather flexible slotting, and that you have to pay a little more attention to intonation, but I'm not sure whether this is relevant to you, as you don't mention intonation issues.
Have you tried a Yamaha short shank mouthpiece with your Yamaha cornet, as this may be worth a try?
Although admittedly having a rather unusual rim, I find the Yamaha 16E to be a great cornet mouthpiece with a very good cornet British Brass Band cornet tone, which probably not surprisingly is a good match for a Yamaha cornet.
All the best
Lou
Edit: I've just looked up the mouthpiece which you say that you are playing. Although you said that it was an ACB Mount Vernon 3C British Cornet mouthpiece, since you described it as a British cornet mouthpiece, I presumed that it was a deep British-style cornet mouthpiece with a Mount Vernon 3C rim.
Looking at the information on the link below, although probably deeper than a modern Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece, the ACB C cup doesn't look particularly deep. I'm not sure either about the throat size or backbore.
If this mouthpiece is basically a Bach Mount Vernon 3C in a short cornet blank, with the cup not being significantly deeper, and the throat and backbore being along the lines of a 27 and Bach 10 respectively, then I imagine that you would require a long shank with these mouthpiece parameters, considering that at least in my experience with my particular Xeno, you need to pull out the main tuning slide quite a way with any mouthpiece.
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/austin-custom-brass-short-shank-cornet-mouthpieces/ _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 145
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: Thanks |
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Thanks Louise Finch! Perhaps going with the same rim but deeper cup will be beneficial. You should check out our group Kingston Brass here in Toronto. We are a 10 piece British brass set up. We won second place at the North American Brass Band championships. |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Thanks |
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Jabroni wrote: | Thanks Louise Finch!
Hi Jabroni
You are very welcome.
Perhaps going with the same rim but deeper cup will be beneficial.
It will hopefully lower the pitch a little. I'm however wondering what is going on with the slotting, since you don't only mention that you have your slide pulled almost half way out, but that you have slotting issues with this amount of slide pull. If you push in the slide right in, what please changes about the slotting? What please changes if you pull the slide out as far as it will go without falling out?
It is probably me, but I personally don't quite understand the relationship between having a slide a long way out and slotting. I am wondering whether rather than your cornet being so sharp overall, that you may have intonation issues for some reason (possibly mouthpiece related), and that by pulling your slide our far enough for the sharpest notes to be in tune, you are having to lip up the flatter ones, which is resulting in you having to play them at the top rather than centre of the slot, leading to slotting issues.
You should check out our group Kingston Brass here in Toronto. We are a 10 piece British brass set up. We won second place at the North American Brass Band championships.
Congratulations on your second place win. I'll have to google your group.
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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BSTRUMPET85 Regular Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 98
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Try the Warburton 4BC with a 7BC backbore. His 4 rim is close to a MTV 3C rim and the BC cup is a British style "Vee" cup. I have a slightly modified version of this and it works well and plays in tune. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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when you up slide half way out, all the other slides need to be pulled accordingly or the slots will be drastically off. If you don't move the other slides the correct amount, your G would in tune but your A would be way sharp.
the fifth harmonic E would be a bit flat like always, but the D right next to it would be sharp probably, which would be a mind twist. You would be lipping everything except the open tones. PLUS its a gig IF to assume your open tones are good too. pulling an inch and a half makes a big chunk of the horn a .510 bore, and that will mess up all kinds of things with the open tones. If you have to pull that much you need at least one linch inserts to fill up all that space. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | when you up slide half way out, all the other slides need to be pulled accordingly or the slots will be drastically off. If you don't move the other slides the correct amount, your G would in tune but your A would be way sharp.
the fifth harmonic E would be a bit flat like always, but the D right next to it would be sharp probably, which would be a mind twist. You would be lipping everything except the open tones. PLUS its a gig IF to assume your open tones are good too. pulling an inch and a half makes a big chunk of the horn a .510 bore, and that will mess up all kinds of things with the open tones. If you have to pull that much you need at least one linch inserts to fill up all that space. |
Hi lipshurt
Thanks very much for the explanation. I didn't realise that it would make such a difference, and it appears that the OP definitely needs to find a way to flatten the pitch sufficiently to be able to move the main tuning slide in.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 145
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: Exactly |
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Lipshurt, exactly the issue with the slides. In addition every other horn I play including my Neo Soprano, plays with very little of the main tuning slides (leadpipes) pulled. This includes my orchestral horns, rotary and as I mentioned my soprano. This issue is only with this horn. And no I do not want to try a Warburton thank you. |
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