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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:46 am Post subject: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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Just a few questions I'm interested in having answered by trumpet players. Even if you dont have a high F (third ledger line above treble clef) feel free to respond to this little questionaire anyway. Although certain questions may become moot for you. So for those which arent relevant because of a range limitation? Simply respond with either "n/a" as in not applicable. Or just leave the question unanswered.
1. Do you have a bandstand usable F above high C? This is the note on top of the third ledger line treble clef staff. Aka as concert E Flat.
2. When during your training did you begin to develop this and/or higher notes in the practice room?
3. How long after developing these notes did you start using them in concert? Either amateur or professional is okay.
4. In the course of making a living did you use this and/or other higher notes in performance? Write "N/A" if you havent played professionally exclusively to support yourself for at least one whole year.
5. When you began to develop this and/or higher notes in practice did it develop gradually or did it come in a clump of other notes? Meaning did you achieve this pitch slowly over time or did it come to you with a whole cluster of high notes which you had never played before?
6. Which direction does your trumpet reside while you're playing relative to your facial structure? Choose one of the following answers and feel free to elaborate more specifically after reading the concluding words of 6.
A. Close to straight out perpendicular to your basic facial structure. Or pretty much parallel to the floor when your head is set level not slouched.
B. Somewhat downward in angle. Points to the floor at least a little.
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C. Somewhat above level. Points at least a little skyward.
Note: When answering this question indicate using a clock dial where your horn rests. 3:00 oclock is perfectly straight so long as your head remains un slouched. 4:00 oclock is down slightly. 5:00 oclock almost an extremely low setting. 2:00 oclock is noticely above parallel to the floor or above perpendicular to your face.
7. Does playing on a dry lip setting assist your ability to play high notes? Elaborate. Like if some form of dry lip setting helped you hit higher notes tell us how this assisted you in terms of notes added, louder volume produced, better accuracy or endurance. If you dont play dry just answer "N/A".
8. Describe the mouthpiece you prefer for upper register work and state if you change mouthpieces when not playing lead.
9. Which lip dominates your mouthpiece? More upper, lower or equal?
10. Explain which method you used that helped develop your register. Elaborate and list any others you've used along the way. List which one helped the most and which wasnt so helpful.
11. Feel free to add additional comments on your development of the upper register. Such as which muscles you think that you use to play better high notes. Or anything else you feel could help the discussion.
Will add my own answers in a day or so. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:47 am Post subject: |
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If answering only 1 and 2 is of any help:
1) Yes.
2) Junior in high school.
Brad
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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1. Yup
2. 1st year
3. Right away
4. N/a
5. High D at first attempt, the rest agonisingly slowly, meaning weeks or longer per 1/2 step, not arriving at A above high C til beginning my 3rd year.
6. Now it varies with range, higher as I ascend but my best guess is never as high as 2.
7. Wet
8. Greg Black NY2, .641" Smaller does not help me now. I did play smaller for years, don't know if it helped me then. For all-around I now play best on a 1.25C, but cannot make the switch if I practice both. Lately I am practicing on .665" 1.5 and consistently playing both sizes.
9. Very much top lip downstream
10. Started on CG / SA, after already having developed serious lung power by swimming underwater long distance. Bill Adam's disciples were the next big influence on me. Then Callet, who helped me discover my natural tongue function, then Reinhardt (via his students) finally guided me into putting it all together. Wish I had started in that camp!
11. The brain is the most important muscle, and Adam's focus and concentration is always paramount (given that mechanics are in order) |
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: |
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1. Yes
2. As a little kid it started
3. After college up to a G above high C. About 10 years after that, up into the altissimo double C range.
4. Definitely, usually several times a week at least.
5. Getting above G above high C was a gradual process - leadpipe buzzing was one of the first things that opened this register up for me as well as playing the right size diameter mouthpiece for my chops.
6. I've been typed by David Sheetz as a IIIB according to Reinhardt classification. My horn points slightly downward when I play..not to any extreme degree..Yeah, maybe 4:00
7. N/A
8. I prefer a very shallow mouthpiece with a tighter throat unless it is a straight 'Maynard V' configuration, then I like bigger throats.
9.Upper
10. Right now I am working with a combination of Lynn Nicholson's MF protocol and Clint 'Pops' McGlaughlin's ideas on tensionless playing. I see these two approaches as being very related. Just working to play as efficiently as possible without ever getting too tired..all through the trumpet range from Low F# to G above double C.
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bach_again
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2481
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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1. Yes
2. About a year into taking trumpet seriously. 18yo.
3. Immediately.
4. Yes.
5. I think you can play to F with terrible technique. I was inconsistent until I addressed my technique. In the last 3.5 years I've made FAR more progress than the entire time I've played the trumpet before that.
6. : Downward: 4 o'clock.
7. No. I struggle when I sweat a lot on a gig - oils on the skin plus sweat means I really struggle to keep my setting, but in day to day I do moisten the lips to play. For a while I played dry. I found it could easily lead to over blowing and more pressure.
8. Warburton 7ESV/2 on Stomvi S3. I like resistance. Most other stuff I use a 7SV/2 or deeper if necessary. I use a 9M/Schmidt backbores for pic.
9. Upper.
10. Roger Ingram's teaching turned me about. With help from Reinhardt, Chris LaBarbera, Rich Willey, Bryan Davis, Mike Smith, Geoff Winstead. I think there's some good in all methods, but the Gordon method didn't help me at all and the Odneal DHC method jacked my embouchure badly - I was young and likely misinterpreting it, but it took me nearly 7 years to get my chops back on track after it.
11. Nothing beats meeting and learning from someone who can really teach chops. I recommend any of the above in a heart beat. I think you find the upper register, not build it, I don't think it's athletic at all. Not really. Go softly. Cut down the volume in the mid and low registers.
HTH!
Mike
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| Lionel wrote: |
1. Do you have a bandstand usable F above high C? This is the note on top of the third ledger line treble clef staff. Aka as concert E Flat. |
Yes
| Quote: | | 2. When during your training did you begin to develop this and/or higher notes in the practice room? |
Very soon after I first started playing sop cornet (18 y/o), the first time I'd regularly used a mouthpiece that wasn't a super-deep cup and huge throat... so, effectively, the first time I really needed to play concert high Eb's (Eb cornet High C) combined with the first time I was using gear that wouldn't fight it.
| Quote: | | 3. How long after developing these notes did you start using them in concert? Either amateur or professional is okay. |
Immediately... to some extent, as an amateur, I was asked for them before they were 100% safe - I'd usually get them, but it wan't as safe as I'd have liked it to be.
| Quote: | | 4. In the course of making a living did you use this and/or other higher notes in performance? Write "N/A" if you havent played professionally exclusively to support yourself for at least one whole year. |
Technically speaking, N/A - I've been paid to play, but it's never been anything but supplementary income.
On the other hand, I was once asked "do you play professionally?" by a visitor to the Eclipse shop (happened to be down there for the day) and answered "no", upon which Leigh interjected to say "don't listen to him, these championship section sop players say they're not pro's, but they're better than many pro's"... take that whichever way you like, but I don't call myself a pro.
| Quote: | | 5. When you began to develop this and/or higher notes in practice did it develop gradually or did it come in a clump of other notes? Meaning did you achieve this pitch slowly over time or did it come to you with a whole cluster of high notes which you had never played before? |
Hmm... it's long enough ago that I can't honestly answer it definitively... I needed to use the notes around there far more regularly than I had as a Bb cornet player, but I can't recall what I was regularly practicing up to until that point.
| Quote: | 6. Which direction does your trumpet reside while you're playing relative to your facial structure? Choose one of the following answers and feel free to elaborate more specifically after reading the concluding words of 6.
A. Close to straight out perpendicular to your basic facial structure. Or pretty much parallel to the floor when your head is set level not slouched.
B. Somewhat downward in angle. Points to the floor at least a little.
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C. Somewhat above level. Points at least a little skyward.
Note: When answering this question indicate using a clock dial where your horn rests. 3:00 oclock is perfectly straight so long as your head remains un slouched. 4:00 oclock is down slightly. 5:00 oclock almost an extremely low setting. 2:00 oclock is noticely above parallel to the floor or above perpendicular to your face. |
Horn angle a little below horizontal, but not much - maybe 3:30-4:00.
| Quote: | | 7. Does playing on a dry lip setting assist your ability to play high notes? Elaborate. Like if some form of dry lip setting helped you hit higher notes tell us how this assisted you in terms of notes added, louder volume produced, better accuracy or endurance. If you dont play dry just answer "N/A". |
If I try back and forth with dry vs wet settings doing compression drills really pushing into the high register, the dry might have a slight edge... but for all-round playing I get far better accuracy and consistency by playing wet - so I play wet.
| Quote: | | 8. Describe the mouthpiece you prefer for upper register work and state if you change mouthpieces when not playing lead. |
This isn't exclusively "lead" range for me - at least not in the sense of requiring what I typically think of as a "lead" tone...
If playing big-band type arrangements where I need that kind of tone (because I'm playing the lead lines) I'll use a Reeves 40S, but for general all-round playing I use something a little deeper.
| Quote: | | 9. Which lip dominates your mouthpiece? More upper, lower or equal? |
Upper, about 60/40-ish.
| Quote: | | 10. Explain which method you used that helped develop your register. Elaborate and list any others you've used along the way. List which one helped the most and which wasnt so helpful. |
Need it, use it, practice it, maintain it.
Using it regularly keeps the pitches in my mind and the feel of playing them in the lips - and in turn, the relaxation to get on with it and not over-think.
Anything that builds familiarity and links registers tends to help me (Colin Flexibilities are great for it).
Trying to play too much loud mid-low register stuff seems to give negative results - I presume it's from spreading aperture too much to play the higher stuff efficiently.
| Quote: | | 11. Feel free to add additional comments on your development of the upper register. Such as which muscles you think that you use to play better high notes. Or anything else you feel could help the discussion. |
Thinking of them as "high" breeds fear and the wrong kind of tension - neither of which is helpful... some people pllay too loose and in those cases more lip-lip compression helps, but fear-induced tension doesn't. |
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dershem
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1887
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Just a few questions I'm interested in having answered by trumpet players. Even if you dont have a high F (third ledger line above treble clef) feel free to respond to this little questionaire anyway. Although certain questions may become moot for you. So for those which arent relevant because of a range limitation? Simply respond with either "n/a" as in not applicable. Or just leave the question unanswered.
1. Do you have a bandstand usable F above high C? This is the note on top of the third ledger line treble clef staff. Aka as concert E Flat.
Uusally.
2. When during your training did you begin to develop this and/or higher notes in the practice room?
I started playing at 10, had a C at 11 and the G above that by 15.
3. How long after developing these notes did you start using them in concert? Either amateur or professional is okay.
Pretty much as I got them, I used them.
4. In the course of making a living did you use this and/or other higher notes in performance? Write "N/A" if you havent played professionally exclusively to support yourself for at least one whole year.
Yes. I played a lot of lead when I was young.
5. When you began to develop this and/or higher notes in practice did it develop gradually or did it come in a clump of other notes? Meaning did you achieve this pitch slowly over time or did it come to you with a whole cluster of high notes which you had never played before?
It was a mostly gradual improvement. The more I play, the more I play, if you get what I mean. So playing a lot in my teens gave me a lot of range.
6. Which direction does your trumpet reside while you're playing relative to your facial structure? Choose one of the following answers and feel free to elaborate more specifically after reading the concluding words of 6.
A. Close to straight out perpendicular to your basic facial structure. Or pretty much parallel to
Pretty much this.
7. Does playing on a dry lip setting assist your ability to play high notes? Elaborate. Like if some form of dry lip setting helped you hit higher notes tell us how this assisted you in terms of notes added, louder volume produced, better accuracy or endurance. If you dont play dry just answer "N/A".
When my chops are tired and sore or weak, a dry embouchure helps a little bit, but the more I play, the easier it becomes to play on a wet embouchure. When I'm strong, it gets messy. 
8. Describe the mouthpiece you prefer for upper register work and state if you change mouthpieces when not playing lead.
I use a custom Marcinkiewicz. Same one for every gig, but diffrent ones for different horns (same one for Bb, larger for C, smaller for Eb and picc).
9. Which lip dominates your mouthpiece? More upper, lower or equal?
A bit more lower lip.
10. Explain which method you used that helped develop your register. Elaborate and list any others you've used along the way. List which one helped the most and which wasnt so helpful.
Never used a "Method" per se. Too lessons from Mic Gillette for 50 years (since I was 10), and from Red Rodney (when I was 30, just a few). I always work toward a low to no pressure setup, with adjustable corners so I can jump to trombone or tuba or french horn in a measure.
11. Feel free to add additional comments on your development of the upper register. Such as which muscles you think that you use to play better high notes. Or anything else you feel could help the discussion.
Rather than tight, I go for firm. Keep the upper lip firm and strong, and the range is limited only by the air supply. Learn to rotate the horn along its axis while playing to use just chops instead of oodles of pressure to play. Work on breathing (which tuba helps with), efficent use of air (which horn helps with), LISTENING (which trombone is great for) and keeping everything centered and relaxed.
Will add my own answers in a day or so. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9025
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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1. High "E".
2. Yes.
3. A couple of weeks.
4. No
5. Clump of other notes.
6. Somewhat downward.
7. N/A
8. Schilke 11B (custom)
9. Don't know.
10. The Balanced Embouchure, Maggio
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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I really appreciate the responses so far. Am collecting the results but not putting names on them. Your confidentiality is important to me.
So far what Ive seen seems to substantiate some ideas Ive had for a while. The most significant being that those who started developing high notes did so around the time they were well into puberty. Which tells me that their ability to blow high notes correlates well with the added strength that males typically get after they "sprout up".
An observation tending to reinforce the theory that air support is more significant than embouchure type. Or even development.
Now to answer my own questions. As if you should care lol...
| Lionel wrote: | Just a few questions I'm interested in having answered by trumpet players. Even if you dont have a high F (third ledger line above treble clef) feel free to respond to this little questionaire anyway. Although certain questions may become moot for you. So for those which arent relevant because of a range limitation? Simply respond with either "n/a" as in not applicable. Or just leave the question unanswered.
1. Do you have a bandstand usable F above high C? This is the note on top of the third ledger line treble clef staff. Aka as concert E Flat.
Yes
2. When during your training did you begin to develop this and/or higher notes in the practice room?
About my 5th to 6th year after picking up the horn. Roughly age 14 & 1/2.
3. How long after developing these notes did you start using them in concert? Either amateur or professional is okay.
2 to 3 years later I began using F through A natural in concert.
4. In the course of making a living did you use this and/or other higher notes in performance? Write "N/A" if you havent played professionally exclusively to support yourself for at least one whole year.
Yes though I could have gotten away with only a high D. My bandmates however did appreciate my usage of high F and above.
5. When you began to develop this and/or higher notes in practice did it develop gradually or did it come in a clump of other notes? Meaning did you achieve this pitch slowly over time or did it come to you with a whole cluster of high notes which you had never played before?
All of my notes above high D developed in a fairly shirt period of time. It was like one day I couldnt play above high C to save my life. The next day was blasting extremely loud high G's...
6. Which direction does your trumpet reside while you're playing relative to your facial structure? Choose one of the following answers and feel free to elaborate more specifically after reading the concluding words of 6.
A. Close to straight out perpendicular to your basic facial structure. Or pretty much parallel to the floor when your head is set level not slouched.
B. Somewhat downward in angle. Points to the floor at least a little.
.
C. Somewhat above level. Points at least a little skyward.
Around "4 oclock" on average. Going slightly lower after ascending to my top notes.
Note: When answering this question indicate using a clock dial where your horn rests. 3:00 oclock is perfectly straight so long as your head remains un slouched. 4:00 oclock is down slightly. 5:00 oclock almost an extremely low setting. 2:00 oclock is noticely above parallel to the floor or above perpendicular to your face.
7. Does playing on a dry lip setting assist your ability to play high notes? Elaborate. Like if some form of dry lip setting helped you hit higher notes tell us how this assisted you in terms of notes added, louder volume produced, better accuracy or endurance. If you dont play dry just answer "N/A".
N/A. I can barely play when my lips are dry. Certainly no advantage there for me. In fact I consider my inability to benefit from playing on dry lips a huge advantage. Not for playing the trumpet but for forcing me to look into what the heck is going on in the embouchures if those heavy scream players who do play dry.
8. Describe the mouthpiece you prefer for upper register work and state if you change mouthpieces when not playing lead.
A very shallow piece which I designed myself. Has a perfectly roud inner rim contour. This contour is of medium thickness. Id say the cup depth is a little shallower than a Schilke 6a. The bowl is of conventional design. Inner rim dimension probably around .610 although with the inner rim "bite" being so round its hard to gauge inner rim dimension. The throat is quite large. Like a #16. Which mitigates the shallowness of cup depth. Despite the depth? It blows fat in all registers. Just about catches on fire around high E throughG
9. Which lip dominates your mouthpiece? More upper, lower or equal?
60% upper
40% lower
10. Explain which method you used that helped develop your register. Elaborate and list any others you've used along the way. List which one helped the most and which wasnt so helpful.
Initially Maggio. The excessive pucker + pedal tones assisted in my initial production of highF thru G.
Later I found helpful material in college.
11. Feel free to add additional comments on your development of the upper register. Such as which muscles you think that you use to play better high notes. Or anything else you feel could help the discussion.
My ability to blow in the extreme upper register was greatly enhanced after I stopped "blocking the sound". This I fixed by teaching myself to always keep a little upper lip laying below my upper teeth.
At least in my own case? Keeping a sufficient amount of upper lip flesh below my upper teeth pretty much allowed me to blow good high notes all by itself. Later I fine tuned my mouthpiece choicez by customization. Frankly I dont think I could have developed the pretty good range which I have today had I stuck to conventiial mouthpieces..
Will add my own answers in a day or so. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. |
Thanks again everyone!!
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bundah
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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1. Do you have a bandstand usable F above high C? This is the note on top of the third ledger line treble clef staff. Aka as concert E Flat.
Yes
2. When during your training did you begin to develop this and/or higher notes in the practice room?
Could "hit" them after about 4years of playing, learned to do it consistently and more efficiently over time.
3. How long after developing these notes did you start using them in concert? Either amateur or professional is okay.
Wasn't really needed at school, started using them at university in big band - so after 5 years of playing.
4. In the course of making a living did you use this and/or other higher notes in performance? Write "N/A" if you havent played professionally exclusively to support yourself for at least one whole year.
Yes all the time
5. When you began to develop this and/or higher notes in practice did it develop gradually or did it come in a clump of other notes? Meaning did you achieve this pitch slowly over time or did it come to you with a whole cluster of high notes which you had never played before?
In clusters up to high G
6. Which direction does your trumpet reside while you're playing relative to your facial structure? Choose one of the following answers and feel free to elaborate more specifically after reading the concluding words of 6.
A. Close to straight out perpendicular to your basic facial structure. Or pretty much parallel to the floor when your head is set level not slouched.
B. Somewhat downward in angle. Points to the floor at least a little.
.
C. Somewhat above level. Points at least a little skyward.
Note: When answering this question indicate using a clock dial where your horn rests. 3:00 oclock is perfectly straight so long as your head remains un slouched. 4:00 oclock is down slightly. 5:00 oclock almost an extremely low setting. 2:00 oclock is noticely above parallel to the floor or above perpendicular to your face.
A 3:00 o'clock
7. Does playing on a dry lip setting assist your ability to play high notes? Elaborate. Like if some form of dry lip setting helped you hit higher notes tell us how this assisted you in terms of notes added, louder volume produced, better accuracy or endurance. If you dont play dry just answer "N/A".
N/A can't play dry at all!
8. Describe the mouthpiece you prefer for upper register work and state if you change mouthpieces when not playing lead.
Reeves 43W sv Use for most things but currently experimenting with a C cup for more legit settings
9. Which lip dominates your mouthpiece? More upper, lower or equal?
60/40 upper lower
10. Explain which method you used that helped develop your register. Elaborate and list any others you've used along the way. List which one helped the most and which wasnt so helpful.
Caruso
Chromatic scales over full range very softly
Wide intervals softly keeping setting very still - minimal movement
Concone/lyrical studies 8va softly
No pedals for me
11. Feel free to add additional comments on your development of the upper register. Such as which muscles you think that you use to play better high notes. Or anything else you feel could help the discussion.
Firm corners, set on top lip, compression from lower lip
Soft and smooth centred sound - no blasting, keep focus. Never overblow!
Will add my own answers in a day or so. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.[/quote]
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bach_again
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2481
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:48 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| Lionel wrote: | I really appreciate the responses so far. Am collecting the results but not putting names on them. Your confidentiality is important to me.
So far what Ive seen seems to substantiate some ideas Ive had for a while. The most significant being that those who started developing high notes did so around the time they were well into puberty. Which tells me that their ability to blow high notes correlates well with the added strength that males typically get after they "sprout up".
An observation tending to reinforce the theory that air support is more significant than embouchure type. Or even development.
|
Hi Lionel,
I have to disagree with your conclusion. I have a couple young very slight students of both sexes who prove that wrong. And some old, strong students who also prove this wrong (in that they struggle above the staff).
I was relatively strong and fit as a kid (not so much now), and it never helped. I'm in the worst shape of my life, and in the best playing shape of my life. In fact one of my personal theories as to why I sucked for so long was being strong. I was able to blow far harder than is necessary. I kept getting TRASH advice to blow more, support more etc etc... wasn't until I STOPPED doing that, that I was able to make progress. I was bashing my head off walls with this man. I couldn't believe anyone needed to use more support or strength than I was using in the past. I sat down with Roger Ingram in Nov 2013 in Michiko studios New York, and he had me warm up with him. Then he asked me to play something. I watched his expression as he analysed me. I could tell he knew what the problem was nearly instantly. He was the first person to truly give me what I needed to progress. Everything he taught couldn't have been more on the money. The other guys I mentioned before helped me piece other bits of the puzzle together. I think I have a corner of the jigsaw done....maybe.
As an additional comment - pedals are pretty ruinous for me. As is the low register spread. (IIIB) Double pedals have a place, however.
Best,
Mike
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Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:25 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| bach_again wrote: | | Lionel wrote: | I really appreciate the responses so far. Am collecting the results but not putting names on them. Your confidentiality is important to me.
So far what Ive seen seems to substantiate some ideas Ive had for a while. The most significant being that those who started developing high notes did so around the time they were well into puberty. Which tells me that their ability to blow high notes correlates well with the added strength that males typically get after they "sprout up".
An observation tending to reinforce the theory that air support is more significant than embouchure type. Or even development.
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Hi Lionel,
I have to disagree with your conclusion. I have a couple young very slight students of both sexes who prove that wrong. And some old, strong students who also prove this wrong (in that they struggle above the staff).
I was relatively strong and fit as a kid (not so much now), and it never helped. I'm in the worst shape of my life, and in the best playing shape of my life. In fact one of my personal theories as to why I sucked for so long was being strong. I was able to blow far harder than is necessary. I kept getting TRASH advice to blow more, support more etc etc... wasn't until I STOPPED doing that, that I was able to make progress. I was bashing my head off walls with this man. I couldn't believe anyone needed to use more support or strength than I was using in the past. I sat down with Roger Ingram in Nov 2013 in Michiko studios New York, and he had me warm up with him. Then he asked me to play something. I watched his expression as he analysed me. I could tell he knew what the problem was nearly instantly. He was the first person to truly give me what I needed to progress. Everything he taught couldn't have been more on the money. The other guys I mentioned before helped me piece other bits of the puzzle together. I think I have a corner of the jigsaw done....maybe.
As an additional comment - pedals are pretty ruinous for me. As is the low register spread. (IIIB) Double pedals have a place, however.
Best,
Mike |
Absolutely +1 - Monster players come in all kinds of shapes and sizes (And I also find pedal practice actively harmful, for me (not officially typed but 99% sure I'm also IIIB))
As for the "blow more, support more, etc" kind of stuff - it didn't do me too many favours either, and coming from a brass band background, growing up on LB cornets and Wick no-letter pieces (huge deep cups and large throats) it's not as if I was ever likely to have been using too little air when I came to be playing trumpet C-cups and 27 throats.
...So I quickly came to the assumption that I wasn't going to be able to "just blow more", and that either this didn't apply to me or what it meant to the people encouraging it wasn't the same as it meant to me - but that in either case, it wouldn't help me to believe it.
At the end of the day, most things in brass playing are a bit like that. The technical mechanics of what's really going on are what they are - but they're not necessarily what we need to believe and/or conceptualise in order to get our best results.
Sometimes telling ourselves little "lies" and making sure we believe them can do a lot of good, and conversely attempting to implement correct mechanics might not neccessarily breed great results (as what we perceive we're doing isn't necessarily what we're actually doing, so we might implement bad mechanics thinking we're doing strictly good - in that sense, a little knowledge can be very dangerous).
I like to use the example of Maurice Andre and tongue arching - he didn't need to believe (until it was shown to him) that his tongue was arching whilst playing - he was undisputedly one of the very finest classical trumpet players there had ever been whilst believing his tongue was flat in his mouth, what mattered was that he was actually doing everything right, which beliefs got him there matter much less (to me).
If we have a great teacher telling us "use more air" and we do what feels to us like using more air, and the teacher tells us we're doing it wrong, (and "even more air" same thing) then what good is it for us to use "more air" from our point of view?
On the other hand, if we (without telling the teacher) then use what feels like "less air" (or "more relaxed air" or "narrower/focused air") and they declare that we've suddenly got it... do we then need to believe that that's what "more air" feels like, or do we then believe that we need to use "less air"?
For me, it's the latter - I then end up believing the opposite of the teacher in order to get the same result... but in terms of making progress, that teacher sets us on the right path much more quickly than we'd find it by endessly banding our heads on the wall repeating the "more air" mantra, not realising that what we thought of as "more air" wasn't the thing thing to do.
I suspect this is the source of many contradictions in brass pedagogy - different people associate different labels to the same sensations without realising they're talking about the same thing... and our most common schools of thought are largely just the beliefs that work for larger numbers of people.
(Apologies for writing so much) |
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bach_again
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| bach_again wrote: | Great post, TK!! Totally agree. You put into words what I was thinking.
Best,
Mike
PS Most of the worst advice was from banders back when I was cutting my teeth so to speak. Well meant, but absolutely misguided!! |
Cheers - I found it tricky to put into words, and if honest I thought it might be a bit too waffly!
Indeed, some of the worst advice I've seen given out has been from banders... and yet, their attitudes towards just getting on with it and tending not to overthink things can really work - its a strange little world to be sure, but oh so fun! |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| Lionel wrote: | | The most significant [ideas] being that those who started developing high notes did so around the time they were well into puberty. Which tells me that their ability to blow high notes correlates well with the added strength that males typically get after they "sprout up".! |
Do girls/young women "sprout up"?
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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p.s. this goes for all threads. Is there some reason why members cant spend
a moment editing posts instead of merely re-posting ("quote"), with their new posts, the original posts over and over again? Sure garbages up subsequent posts. Thanks.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| Quote: | | I like to use the example of Maurice Andre and tongue arching - he didn't need to believe (until it was shown to him) that his tongue was arching whilst playing - he was undisputedly one of the very finest classical trumpet players there had ever been whilst believing his tongue was flat in his mouth, what mattered was that he was actually doing everything right, which beliefs got him there matter much less (to me). |
I think this could also be an example of why we should stop worrying about what we're doing and just make music.
| Quote: | If we have a great teacher telling us "use more air" and we do what feels to us like using more air, and the teacher tells us we're doing it wrong, (and "even more air" same thing) then what good is it for us to use "more air" from our point of view?
On the other hand, if we (without telling the teacher) then use what feels like "less air" (or "more relaxed air" or "narrower/focused air") and they declare that we've suddenly got it... do we then need to believe that that's what "more air" feels like, or do we then believe that we need to use "less air"?
For me, it's the latter - I then end up believing the opposite of the teacher in order to get the same result... but in terms of making progress, that teacher sets us on the right path much more quickly than we'd find it by endessly banding our heads on the wall repeating the "more air" mantra, not realising that what we thought of as "more air" wasn't the thing thing to do. |
I am a fan of this approach, using the right amount of air, which is often less.
Check out this from Rafael Mendez:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUij8FCg0z8
Particularly his notes on air useage at 2:42 and his demonstration to prove it.
And also this from Roger Ingram:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6WBOBtR850Y
| Quote: | | I suspect this is the source of many contradictions in brass pedagogy - different people associate different labels to the same sensations without realising they're talking about the same thing... and our most common schools of thought are largely just the beliefs that work for larger numbers of people. |
Amen!
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | Quote: | | I like to use the example of Maurice Andre and tongue arching - he didn't need to believe (until it was shown to him) that his tongue was arching whilst playing - he was undisputedly one of the very finest classical trumpet players there had ever been whilst believing his tongue was flat in his mouth, what mattered was that he was actually doing everything right, which beliefs got him there matter much less (to me). |
I think this could also be an example of why we should stop worrying about what we're doing and just make music. |
... as long as what we're doing is working, then generally speaking yes.
| Quote: | | Quote: | If we have a great teacher telling us "use more air" and we do what feels to us like using more air, and the teacher tells us we're doing it wrong, (and "even more air" same thing) then what good is it for us to use "more air" from our point of view?
On the other hand, if we (without telling the teacher) then use what feels like "less air" (or "more relaxed air" or "narrower/focused air") and they declare that we've suddenly got it... do we then need to believe that that's what "more air" feels like, or do we then believe that we need to use "less air"?
For me, it's the latter - I then end up believing the opposite of the teacher in order to get the same result... but in terms of making progress, that teacher sets us on the right path much more quickly than we'd find it by endessly banding our heads on the wall repeating the "more air" mantra, not realising that what we thought of as "more air" wasn't the thing thing to do. |
I am a fan of this approach, using the right amount of air, which is often less.
Check out this from Rafael Mendez:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUij8FCg0z8
Particularly his notes on air useage at 2:42 and his demonstration to prove it.
And also this from Roger Ingram:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6WBOBtR850Y |
Indeed - figure out how much you need to use (or better, get a good teacher and trust their judgement), figure out what that sensation is to you (whether it feels like "more" than you're used to, or "less", or whether it feels more relaxed, more tense, more focused, narrower, etcetcetc)... it doesn't matter as much what you believe you're doing, what matters is that it works!
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I suspect this is the source of many contradictions in brass pedagogy - different people associate different labels to the same sensations without realising they're talking about the same thing... and our most common schools of thought are largely just the beliefs that work for larger numbers of people. |
Amen! |
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: Re: For those who can play a good high F or better. |
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1. Yes, at least when I'm not too tired. I'm good for a G on a good day, and the A refuses to be my friend so far.
2. Not until a few years after my comeback.
3. Probably around a year? Not exactly sure.
4. Other than in a big band setting, I almost never see that note written other than maybe in a picc part.
5. It came along shortly after beginning regular Stamp exercises and concentrating more on range in general.
6. B, slightly. I don't know the exact angle, and don't care.
7. Never had luck trying to play dry.
8. Schilke custom frankenmpc, 5S with a JetTone 2B rim and a starred cup.
9. Fairly even.
10. Main thing that improved my range was actually working on range exercises, instead of avoiding them.  In addition to what I already mentioned, the so-called 'Faddis' exercise has proved helpful as well, along with Pops' recommendation to play a lot of high notes daily.
11. I never had a decent range when I was young, mainly because wearing braces for a year and a half in the middle of high school pretty much crowbarred that idea.
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bach_again
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | p.s. this goes for all threads. Is there some reason why members cant spend
a moment editing posts instead of merely re-posting, with their new posts, the original (sometimes lengthy posts) posts over and over again? Sure garbages up subsequent posts. Thanks. |
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