This thread is awful. Louis is a heck of a player and seemingly a very nice guy. Why pick apart and minimize anything about his playing
The exact, specific point of the OP was to examine "how does he do it". _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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All Robert P is saying is that a person's individual physiology is one of many factors in the person's ability to become proficient in some physical skill and that some physiological characteristics can make it easier to become proficient than other physiological characteristics.
I think the statement was intended to be general in nature. Robert P is not saying that Louis hasn't worked, long, hard and diligently to develop his skill in the high register. He's simply hypothesizing that Louis may be more naturally physically suited to this type of playing than most players and that the method by which Louis developed his skills is not necessarily going to translate into similar development by players who are physiologically different from Louis. It's not a criticism of Louis or anyone else.
I agree with Louis that the most important thing is the final result and, in that regard, Louis is an awesome player and every video I've seen of him playing with his group is extremely tasteful and very well done. Louis displays superb ability in all ranges of the instrument. I can't wait to hear more from him! _________________ HERMOKIWI
If you seriously need to ask that after reading what I've already said - and what I assume most people are generally aware of - you're not going to be satisfied with any answer I give you.
I feel your assertions were rather general so far and I was hoping you could be a little more specific especially after claiming that there is a "mountain of evidence" that a special physiognomy is necessary to be able to play in the high register.
All the various factors that are involved. The lips - shape, thickness, texture, elastic properties. Tooth shape and configuration - length, angle, evenness, how they line up with the lips, anomalies like gap. As I understand it Jon Faddis had the big gap in his teeth filled in and immediately had it unfixed because it killed his range. I think it's generally acknowledged that after Maynard had his teeth capped his playing was never the same.
Oral cavity shape, properties of the tongue, probably the muscles of the throat. Ones neuromuscular/neurosensory feedback loop. Maybe even ones chest cavity.
Anything that effects what happens when you play.
I have personal experience that teeth shape can make a difference. My upper central incisors used to be longer than the lateral incisors - I filed them down even with the laterals and immediately had better response & power which I had a hunch I would and turns out I was right.
The mountain of evidence is that some players obviously have an easier time of it than others. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:43 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
The mountain of evidence is that some players obviously have an easier time of it than others.
There's definitely some truth to that. I saw it in my own experiences at the Armed Forces School of Music. There were guys who were in the practice room all the time, yet struggled to put it together to get to a point where they weren't going to be dropped from the program.
At the time, I guess I sort of considered myself a "skater" - We needed to have a minimum of 10 practice units per week. Although 20+ was recommended, I was usually somewhere in the 10-14 range, and I got by just fine. I never had an issue in any of my rehearsals or classes, and I never had an issue passing my auditions.
Conversely, a friend of mine put in a lot of time - not only was he consistently 20+ on the practice units, there were weeks where he'd be 30+, but it took him 3 tries to pass his outgoing audition. This was a guy who already had a degree in music - I was straight out of high school.
With that in mind, there were some folks who put in the time who did advance quite a lot, so I think that natural aptitude needs to be factored in. Hard work can overcome a lot, but it can't overcome everything.
Bringing this back to Louis, there's no doubt in my mind watching him play that he's put in scads of time to build his technique to where he's got it. I don't know if his embouchure is natural, or if at some point he took the time to revamp it and built it to what it currently is, but with that in mind, a friend of mine did just that at one point in his life. He did nothing for almost a year except work on his embouchure. When he started doing that he was a 2nd ledger C/D player. Now? There's almost no limit - he's got Triple Cs. _________________ Patrick Gleason
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:29 am Post subject:
Chickentiko wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry I'm late to the party but I thought I should clear some stuff up on here.
I don't usually get involved with conversations like this for obvious reasons.
First off, I'd like to say thanks to everyone that watches the videos and has such positive things to say about them. A HELL of a lot of time is put into it and I appreciate people for recognising that. To all the people that want more videos, we have a few not far from coming out and thanks for being patient with that.
I make YouTube videos for lots of reasons. Callum and I had only planned on doing one, Let it Go, but the response was so positive, we decided to make a series of it.
Please realise too, the music we have decided to cover are VERY popular tunes and this was a tactic we used to build a large following as we were always aware that trumpet videos were a niche thing to produce anyway. We needed some help from somewhere.
For me, making these videos is all about getting a chance to record some of my favourite musicians in the world playing some really well constructed arrangements by Callum Au, mixing them, mastering them and putting the video together. The high note thing is secondary to that and I believe that most people seem to forget about all the other stuff that goes into it.
The main reason I am getting involved with this particular post is that it confuses me when people say that the only thing I release to the world is high notes... if you actually watch all of the video (and not just skip to the high bit at the end) you'll find some middle range stuff in there too, which is another aspect of playing I have spent a tonne of time trying to get together. I was taught that below top C was the "cash" register, and if you can't play in that area of the horn, you won't make any...
For the people who suspect that I am somehow "gifted" and "natural" at playing high notes, I would whole-heartedly disagree. To assume that someone has that kind of privilege takes away from the hours of hard work that the have invested into it. Just because someone can play in that register at a young age, doesn't mean they haven't put the hours in. I know people will disagree with me here, because they for some reason can't imagine anyone else being able to do what they can't do, but there are plenty of amazing young trumpet talents in London at the moment and I can't wait for you all to search for them and hear them. It's pretty special.
Anyway, the last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that I was never planning on doing any of these videos. I (like many people do) said that I wasn't ready to release tracks to the world. Ryan Quigley, my lead trumpet player, very close friend and a complete badass player, told me that I'll never feel ready, so just release them. He was right. We are all trying to get better and aiming for the same goal, but if no one is proactive about it, there wouldn't be any music in the first place.
To me, the most important thing is that I get to play with my favourite people and if these videos give me more chances to do that, then that's cool by me.
Thanks all,
Louis Dowdeswell
Hi Louis,
Somehow I missed this whole thread - all 5 pages of it. But a good friend of mine, who has made a living playing jazz trumpet for more than thirty years called me up this morning and told me about this thread. He basically was (and is) disgusted by the (far) less-than-positive comments from some people around here.
For what it's worth, he and I both think you ROCK (or rather, you JAZZ)!!! Of course, what would we know?....
Keep it up.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
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He basically was (and is) disgusted by the (far) less-than-positive comments from some people around here.
Can you point to comments that "disgust" you or your friend. Curious to see how much of this "disgust" is based on social dynamics - all of it from what I see - as opposed to actual valid reasoning.
Here's what I see this boiling down to.
Q. How does he play these high notes??
A. A combination of practice and physical traits that give them a natural predisposition to do it after only playing a relatively short time. That's largely why they could do it as a teenager and others can't do it after 30 years of dedicated practice.
The Crowd - WHAT?? HOW DARE YOU IMPLY THAT IT'S ANYTHING *OTHER* THAN JUST WORK AND WONDERFULNESS????
A. Ah, I see - you don't really want to hear a serious answer. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:37 am Post subject:
Robert, consider that some of us that have been playing 30+ years and can't do what he does - at least from an embouchure perspective - might have bad habits or are doing things in a way that simply isn't conducive to stratospheric range. Also consider that maybe Louis had BOTH a good teacher who got him going with his embouchure development early, AND he put in a ton of work in the practice room.
I'll go back to what I initially said in this thread - my hat is off to the guy because I think he's one of the most exciting young trumpet players to come along in a while. _________________ Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
A. A combination of practice and physical traits that give them a natural predisposition to do it after only playing a relatively short time. That's largely why they could do it as a teenager and others can't do it after 30 years of dedicated practice.
I think that what is irking some people is that you seem to be taking the position that Louis factually has (or must have) a predisposition to play in the high register rather than clearly presenting your position as simply a hypothesis.
I'm not in disagreement that some physiological characteristics are especially well aligned with the ability to play in the high register. What is uncertain and unproven is that Louis possesses those physiological characteristics. I don't think it can automatically be assumed that he does. Certainly, based on his comments here, Louis is not of the opinion that there is anything about his physiology that has given him any inherent advantage in terms of his high note ability. Based on the available information, there is just no way for us to know factually.
There are a lot high note players who were not high note prodigies as teenagers so I don't think it can reasonably be concluded that just because a player has high note ability the player had a natural physiological gift for doing that which gave the player a special advantage. As for the teenage high note prodigies, some people just figure it out earlier than others. Wayne Bergeron started out on French Horn. Maybe something just clicked when he switched to trumpet.
All that being said, natural advantage or not, no one plays like Louis without an extreme amount of dedication and work. People coming to the high note forum are often looking for "tricks" to play in the high register. The most important "trick" is to work hard and work smart to develop range. _________________ HERMOKIWI
I'll go back to what I initially said in this thread - my hat is off to the guy because I think he's one of the most exciting young trumpet players to come along in a while.
I never said anything impugning Louis, I made what I believe to be accurate statements regarding the mechanics of his playing. Apparently a lot of people - including Louis since he complained about things I never said - can't or have no interest in separating the two.
Quote:
Robert, consider that some of us that have been playing 30+ years and can't do what he does - at least from an embouchure perspective - might have bad habits or are doing things in a way that simply isn't conducive to stratospheric range. Also consider that maybe Louis had BOTH a good teacher who got him going with his embouchure development early, AND he put in a ton of work in the practice room.
You've already agreed with some of what I said so I know you don't discount that some people are born with gifts that predispose them to success.
While not discounting it altogether I'm not inclined to give strong emphasis to the great teacher factor. There's no denying that with a given group of beginners, some of them are going to excel beyond others with the same teacher, same amount of work. A teacher will be happy to advertise students who have success - you're never going to hear about the ones who floundered under their tutelage despite working hard.
If someone is an instructor at Juilliard the only students they ever see are those who are already at the skinny end of the Bell curve, who've already demonstrated an advanced predisposition.
Further I'm not particularly convinced that all teachers, even famous ones really know exactly why some students excel. "Don't think about it just put it up and blow!" or similar statements get thrown around all the time. Someone I know who you've probably heard of who's had a career as a soloist and a teacher, gives clinics the whole bit - was horrified when I told them I'd had my teeth altered - they stated emphatically they'd never advise a student to do that. I.e. they didn't grasp that my teeth were impeding me. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Last edited by Robert P on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think that what is irking some people is that you seem to be taking the position that Louis factually has (or must have) a predisposition to play in the high register rather than clearly presenting your position as simply a hypothesis.
If someone is doing it after playing a relatively short time it's obvious they *do* have a predisposition.
What's irking some people isn't anything based on objective evaluation. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject:
being the friend that John is referring to..........
maybe Louis is just a BADASS plain and simple and who really cares how he got there.
we should just enjoy that the cat swings his ass off in all that i have heard of him and plays fantastically in tune as well.
his bop language is there too
ron _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
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being the friend that John is referring to..........
maybe Louis is just a BADASS plain and simple and who really cares how he got there.
Well at least you've demonstrated in Glorious Technicolor that I was completely correct that the negative reaction had nothing to do with objective examination of reality.
Something is just because it is, we are never to examine why.
who really cares how
Obviously you don't. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject:
Gloriously reiterated in Technicolor NOPE
i don't give a flying ferengi how he got there.
i am just glad that he did
so just examine away......
i'm going to continue practicing _________________ ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
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And as per previously stated you're disgusted with anyone who does examine it. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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I think that what is irking some people is that you seem to be taking the position that Louis factually has (or must have) a predisposition to play in the high register rather than clearly presenting your position as simply a hypothesis.
If someone is doing it after playing a relatively short time it's obvious they *do* have a predisposition.
What's irking some people isn't anything based on objective evaluation.
The statement "If someone is doing it after playing a relatively short time it's obvious they "do" have a predisposition" is a hypothesis, not an objective evaluation. Learning curves vary considerably. _________________ HERMOKIWI
The statement "If someone is doing it after playing a relatively short time it's obvious they "do" have a predisposition" is a hypothesis, not an objective evaluation.
A hypothesis would be "based on this person's physical traits I think they're going to have an easier time playing high notes."
When someone demonstrates the ability to play high notes after relatively little time on the instrument it's not a hypothesis it's an observation. It's absurd to say that it's only a hypothesis to say they have a predisposition when they've demonstrated that they do. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Last edited by Robert P on Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Of course, what would we know?....
