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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: Re: James Thompson "The Buzzing Book" |
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John Mohan wrote: | ... if you're medically/physically able to buzz your lips or a mouthpiece you are able to practice a trumpet ... | You have no way of knowing that. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Gottfried Reiche wrote: | He's just a troll. Nobody knows or cares about who he is, other than this little community on Trumpet Herald. He's obviously an expert...
Go away Mohan. Seriously. |
Isn't it interesting how the nastiest folks on any internet forum are the ones who don't have the guts to post under their real name?
You did get one thing right. After spending 16 years studying with Claude Gordon, several years studying with top level pros who studied with William Vacchiano and Bill Adam, and more than 30 years playing for a living on two different continents, it would be pretty sad if I wasn't fairly knowledgeable about the instrument by now.
I hope your attitude improves - you'll enjoy life more.
Best wishes, sincerely,
John
P.S. It is amazing how angry and upset some people get when others disagree with them. I really don't understand it. It doesn't upset me in the least when people disagree with me about the validity of mouthpiece (or even worse, lip) buzzing. All I did was post a very simple question - a question that implicitly gave both my opinion and the reasoning behind that opinion. Anyone that thinks that was "arrogant" (as someone posted) needs to have his head examined. Or maybe grow a little thicker skin... |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | All I did was post a very simple question - a question that implicitly gave both my opinion and the reasoning behind that opinion. | Your implied "reasoning" has been shown to be faulty on numerous occasions (including this thread); a flaw that you steadfastly ignore. Despite your self-aggrandizing "expertise", you don't seem to know how to buzz correctly. Perhaps your CG underoos are a bit too tight. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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drboogenbroom wrote: | John,
I have an immense amount of respect for you, and over the years (I joined this site when I was eighteen) I have come around to many of your views on trumpet playing. I am not a great player nor have I studied for 14 years from someone who has a dedicated forum on this site. Honestly, I'm just a high school/middle school band director.
However, from that perspective, I really have to wonder what you hope to accomplish by making comments like that to a 16 year old who has a private lessons teacher. Do you really think you are doing more good by attempting to undercut his trust in his current teacher than his current teacher is doing?
I'm not really interested in debating the merits of mouthpiece buzzing with you or anyone else in this context. But imagine if a high school student of yours came to you one lesson and said:
"Well Mr. Mohan, I've kinda been struggling with some of the stuff you've been telling me about and someone online said tongue arch was bunk and since I can't play a double C yet and I'm 16 I think they might be right."
At that point it doesn't really matter if using tongue arch to play is right or wrong. What matters is that some random on-line person, who might be a great player and a world class teacher or who might be just a random high school band director, or who may have never taught in any context in their life has actively tried to undermine the trust a student has in their teacher so they can.....make a point on a subject every long term forum member knows their thoughts on? And even in a best case scenario where it's coming from someone like you or Lynn Nicholson or Pat Harbison or many of the other site's pros and master teachers, none of you are there to guide the student towards becoming a better player every week.
It's fine to have these debates with adults and pros and people flailing around in the dark. But why run the risk of stepping on someone who is actually in a young person's life trying to make a difference?
I'm just some random dude who teaches about 300 young musicians a year, but to me it seems like professional courtesy.
Kevin |
Hi Kevin,
You raise some pretty good issues and I'm going to go pour a cup of coffee and actually think about it before I continue typing.
Coffee is poured and I also had some of a nice noodle salad my wife made over the other day (just drinking coffee is only going to make me type stupid stuff faster).
To your query regarding what I would do if a student of mine came to me with goofy ideas about (the lack of the need of) tongue arch, and/or concerns over his inability to play DHC while still a high school player: First off, I don't think the first part would ever happen. Once a player is made aware of the role of the tongue (if he didn't already figure it out for himself), that player can feel his tongue arching - nobody's going to convince him otherwise. But I know, that is just an example of the point you are making. To the later part of what you wrote (the DHC part), yes, I can see that could happen. If I had a player overly-anxious to play the extreme upper register I'd attempt to reason with him and point out that we can only progress as fast as nature will allow. I'd probably point out that given the fact that each octave climb on a brass instrument at a particular volume of sound requires a doubling of the supplied air pressure, the player who can play a full power high C but wants to play a full power Double High C is like the weight lifter who can currently bench press 150 lbs but wants to be able to bench press 300 lbs. Barring any physical handicaps, he can develop the desired strength, but it will take years, not months. And if after reasoning with him, I lost him to the dark side anyway, life would go on.
Concerning the idea of extending "professional courtesy", that is the part of your post I've thought the most about. The young man who made the original post wasn't asking for opinions about the validity of buzzing, so one could argue I shouldn't have (implicitly) given my opinion. I can tell you the first thing I did was check to see if the thread was started in any of the dedicated forums here - if it had been in any of the dedicated forums (besides the CG Forum) I would not have made that reply. When I saw it was in the Fundamentals Forum I went ahead and posted what I posted.
I'm sure I'll get flak for the following from some folks here, but here's the truth: If the young man were my own son, I'd have posted the same reply (and I'd probably also find him a new teacher). I just don't think any method that centers around buzzing the lips or the mouthpiece is the best method for developing ability on a brass instrument. Should I have not attempted to reach out to the kid because I don't know him as a courtesy to a teacher I also do not know but think is using a less-than-best teaching method? Maybe, but I don't think so.
Thank you for your well written, and very reasonable post - you have my respect, not only for it, but for doing what you do for a living.
Best wishes,
John |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:09 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | All I did was post a very simple question - a question that implicitly gave both my opinion and the reasoning behind that opinion. | Your implied "reasoning" has been shown to be faulty on numerous occasions (including this thread); a flaw that you steadfastly ignore. Despite your self-aggrandizing "expertise", you don't seem to know how to buzz correctly. Perhaps your CG underoos are a bit too tight. |
I "don't seem to know how to buzz correctly"? Pffffffffffff...
There.
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rlk Regular Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 35
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: Re: James Thompson "The Buzzing Book" |
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John Mohan wrote: | That said, if you're medically/physically able to buzz your lips or a mouthpiece you are able to practice a trumpet |
No, that is not always true. Statements like that strike a raw nerve.
Seriously. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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danny45635 wrote: | I probably should get the book cause I'll be studying with him in the fall. |
Congratulations! Yes, I think you should get the book. It's loaded with lots of great info. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: |
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John, don't sweat it. There's no need to get caught up in who's "right" or "wrong". One thing is obvious though, what works for one may not work for another and there are few absolutes. Absorb what is useful, discard what is not.
While I think it's important to give experienced player's opinions a good listen, in the long it's what works for you. And there's no need to personalize it, (on any body's part). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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tim_wolf Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 379 Location: Lancaster, PA
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: Re: James Thompson "The Buzzing Book" |
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John Mohan wrote: | Jeptrumpet wrote: | Hello! This is my first post so bear with me
I am an upcoming junior in high school and I just started using this book due to my private teacher's recommendation/good testimonials from others.
The only problem I am having is that in exercise 2 I am unable to take in enough air to complete the phrase because I am breathing through my nose.
Does anyone have any tips on breathing or how to overcome this?
Also are there any other tips/information I need when using this book?
Thank you so much! |
Why buzz when you could be spending your time practicing and playing your trumpet?
Seriously,
John Mohan |
John, I'm sure you're aware that Pat Harbison, who studied with Bill Adam (who also did not believe in mouthpiece buzzing), went through this book with the guidance of one of Thompson's former students, and got great benefit from it. If he would have been as closed minded as you, he would not be as good a player as he is today.
BTW, in the first four exercises of this book, which are the core exercises, the total time buzzing the mouthpiece is less than five minutes. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: Re: James Thompson "The Buzzing Book" |
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tim_wolf wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | Jeptrumpet wrote: | Hello! This is my first post so bear with me
I am an upcoming junior in high school and I just started using this book due to my private teacher's recommendation/good testimonials from others.
The only problem I am having is that in exercise 2 I am unable to take in enough air to complete the phrase because I am breathing through my nose.
Does anyone have any tips on breathing or how to overcome this?
Also are there any other tips/information I need when using this book?
Thank you so much! |
Why buzz when you could be spending your time practicing and playing your trumpet?
Seriously,
John Mohan |
John, I'm sure you're aware that Pat Harbison, who studied with Bill Adam (who also did not believe in mouthpiece buzzing), went through this book with the guidance of one of Thompson's former students, and got great benefit from it. If he would have been as closed minded as you, he would not be as good a player as he is today.
BTW, in the first four exercises of this book, which are the core exercises, the total time buzzing the mouthpiece is less than five minutes. |
Five minutes? Well, that's not a lot of time wasted... (Just a JOKE).
Seriously, as I've mentioned in previous threads, there are a couple situations where I think mouthpiece buzzing can be handy. If one is on a vacation or in a situation where it's impossible to bring a horn, well, a mouthpiece fits in a pocket and buzzing it would be better than nothing. And as I've mentioned before, when I have a particular student who is having trouble slurring through the range of the horn, I have him or her practice "sirens" on the mouthpiece, buzzing from what is a comfortably low tone for the student up to a comfortably high tone, back and forth, gradually expanding the interval. In this situation, by eliminating the slots of the instrument it makes it a bit easy to slur between the ranges and helps the student get the feel of it. This is an exercise I usually have the student just do during the lesson. For hard cases I might have the student do it for a few weeks as part of the Flexibilities sub-routine.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but personally I just can't see any benefit (other than what I just mentioned) from taking time that could be spent practicing good exercises (flexibilities, technical studies, range building arpeggios, etudes, etc.) on the trumpet to just buzz a mouthpiece.
Some will say, that they buzz in addition to, as opposed to instead of practicing. But it seems to me that most of us don't have enough time each day to practice all we want to. For those that have more than enough time to practice, there's still the physical limit to how much they should practice. Other than a few special situations, I can't see what buzzing a mouthpiece would do better than practicing a trumpet - but I can think of many reasons practicing a trumpet is better than just buzzing a mouthpiece.
But that said, everyone needs to do what they think is best for themselves. And given the success of many players who have incorporated buzzing as a part of their daily routine I am certainly not saying it is a... wait for it... wait for it... buzzkill. (Sorry - couldn't help it).
Cheers,
John |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: Re: James Thompson "The Buzzing Book" |
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rlk wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | That said, if you're medically/physically able to buzz your lips or a mouthpiece you are able to practice a trumpet |
No, that is not always true. Statements like that strike a raw nerve.
Seriously. |
Other than a situation where one cannot physically hold a trumpet due to their medical condition, what medical condition would cause one to not be able to play a trumpet, but still be able to buzz a mouthpiece? |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I personally don't see five or ten minutes robbing much practice time.
For the record, I was for decades anti-buzzing - for me. Couldn't do it well and it didn't work. Now I'm rebuilding after a number of strokes and the limited-time buzzing has had an immediate positive result on me. So now I'm pro buzzing - for me.
Like I said, what works for one might not work for another. I can see where honest remarks based on tremendous experience, is helpful. I don't see where being dogmatic is
. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Benge 3X Cornet
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:44 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I personally don't see five or ten minutes robbing much practice time.
For the record, I was for decades anti-buzzing - for me. Couldn't do it well and it didn't work. Now I'm rebuilding after a number of strokes and the limited-time buzzing has had an immediate positive result on me. So now I'm pro buzzing - for me.
Like I said, what works for one might not work for another. I can see where honest remarks based on tremendous experience, is helpful. I don't see where being dogmatic is
. |
What do you feel the buzzing has specifically done for you? Was it something similar to the success I mentioned I've had with some of my students (having them buzz "Sirens" when they've had trouble getting the knack of how to slur from low notes to higher notes)? Or something different?
Sorry about those strokes. Strokes suck.
Cheers,
John |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda hard for me to put into words, but it just seems to focus my buzz more when I do, then, play. It's also great ear training. Cleans up what I play.
It just seems to focus my chops better while isolating one factor of trumpet playing. I don't know that you can't do that by going straight to the horn or not, but this preliminary step seems to work for me. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Kinda hard for me to put into words, but it just seems to focus my buzz more when I do, then, play. It's also great ear training. Cleans up what I play.
It just seems to focus my chops better while isolating one factor of trumpet playing. I don't know that you can't do that by going straight to the horn or not, but this preliminary step seems to work for me. |
No argument regarding the ear training part - no relying on slots when buzzing a mouthpiece. |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1442 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I find it very helpful to read the prose in the front of Mr. Thompson's book. There is golden information in there, and I read it every couple of months to get it back into my head. There is more to the whole "buzzing book" concept than just buzzing the mouthpiece...it's a mental exercise, as well as a physical one. It combines elements from Shuebruk, Stamp, Schlossberg, and other methods. (This isn't stated explicitly, however, but is my opinion.)
I never studied with him (although I've taken a lesson ON buzzing from him...it was fascinating). I studied with his protégé Brian Shaw for my DMA, and we basically went through the whole thing. It really helped to iron out a couple of small chop issues that I had.
I did it religiously every day for a few years, but don't much anymore. I do return to it occasionally though, when I feel like I need it. There's a lot about the balance between lip compression and air flow that is amazing...when I feel that getting out of whack it helps to center me. Also, when I feel like I'm overshooting things with my chops, I return to it as well... the results for me are more centered notes, better accuracy, and much more efficiency with my chops.
I used to view the book as part of my daily "trumpet diet"...but nowadays it's more of occasional "medicine," if I feel like I need it.
Louie _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1442 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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And on another brief note...
I find it much more beneficial when folks share what works for them, and focus on that, rather than trying to get others to NOT do something (unless it's harmful, which buzzing the mouthpiece certainly isn't). John, I think that's why folks jumped on you.
Everybody on TH could do a better job keeping things positive. _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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loudog wrote: | And on another brief note...
I find it much more beneficial when folks share what works for them, and focus on that, rather than trying to get others to NOT do something (unless it's harmful, which buzzing the mouthpiece certainly isn't). John, I think that's why folks jumped on you. |
Good idea. From now on, I think I'll probably only give my opinion regarding mouthpiece buzzing when opinions are sought in a topic thread. That was not what the OP was seeking. Still might fire off a Private Message to future OPs of similar threads, though.
Cheers,
John |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I never studied with Mr. Thompson, but I've used his book quite a bit on and off over the years and think it's brilliant. Other times I've used Boyd Hood's drills or Stamp. If not for these three, I wouldn't have a career.
Here's what I've gotten out of playing the mouthpiece in teaching and playing.
1. Ear Training: it works well as an intermediate step between singing and the horn. Sing, buzz (or rather play the mouthpiece), play works.
2. Revealing problems in air usage: A lot of players, even relatively accomplished ones, develop some wacky habits with their air. Connections between notes will have gaps in the air (blow, stop, blow for every note), leading to tension in the sound and trouble playing. Cichowicz air patterns help, but going to the mouthpiece usually reveals the true self and makes the issue click. The slow glisses of Thompson's book can serve as a focused study on this issue. The connection between notes are focused and smoothed out which transfers well to regular playing.
Another approach to learning this connectedness this are practicing with slow valve movements. TH's own Jim Wilt teaches something similar to this and Jay Friedman has an excellent article about it as well. While the slow valves are brilliant, the mouthpiece has worked as an excellent study on this skill for me and mine.
3. Avoiding too much lippyness in the playing: Sometimes we become overly careful in trying to place every interval. Rather than move smoothly from note to note, we target each note, often overshooting. Exploring the space between each note allows us to instantaneously gliss between notes like singers, creating well connected and always centered notes.
4. Introducing weirdness: Bad habits can be hard to break when using the object of our habits. Doing something without the baggage of the horn can be liberating. |
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