Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:58 pm Post subject: Closing the throat?
So, I'm getting better and better, day by day. The high C is a note I can paste now (after nearly two years of work, amongst other things). Today I was making high D's ring, high E's were coming out decently nicely (not useful in performance, still "practice-room notes") and the high F was elusive but available with effort.
However, I've come to the realisation that I have a bad habit of CLOSING my throat up the higher I go - adding a LOT of tension, and greatly diminished the freedom of the air flow up there, making the double G VERY difficult to "slide" up to (although I touched on it a couple times, showing that I physically am capable of making it happen).
You guys got any useful tips on relieving that tension to make those notes flow a lot easier? _________________ ATB
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Closing the throat?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
So, I'm getting better and better, day by day. The high C is a note I can paste now (after nearly two years of work, amongst other things). Today I was making high D's ring, high E's were coming out decently nicely (not useful in performance, still "practice-room notes") and the high F was elusive but available with effort.
However, I've come to the realisation that I have a bad habit of CLOSING my throat up the higher I go - adding a LOT of tension, and greatly diminished the freedom of the air flow up there, making the double G VERY difficult to "slide" up to (although I touched on it a couple times, showing that I physically am capable of making it happen).
You guys got any useful tips on relieving that tension to make those notes flow a lot easier?
Couple things here,
The fact that you're getting high E's at volume is very good news. This means you've been one of the fortunate few not stuck at or below high D. The high D cut-off point is as common as grass. Over 90% of all amateur trumpet players have this limitation. And since you don't apparently have this? You have a real advantage.
But as for "closing the throat"? Here we see "Conventional Thinking" in all of it's glory and luster. How many times have we been told by our teachers, especially our band directors from our early years advising us to,
"Always keep your throat open" or,
"Don't play with a closed throat", huh?
We accept this conventional "wisdom" without thinking don't we? It sure sounds reasonable too doesn't?
"Man don't play with your throat closed! That's a major problem".
Well? It only seems to be a major problem until we apply critical thinking and analysis to the matter. Because after we do this? We realize that it is exceedingly unlikely that we'll ever cut off our air supply to the trumpet at our throat.
The fact is that anytime a trumpet player tries to close his throat while playing a brass instrument?
The throat will make a very audible "heccckkkkthhhpth" gargling sound. So if you're not hearing that? You're probably not playing with a closed throat. Instead? Try adding more air support to the equation.
I used to play with a neck puff for over 16 years. My larnyx expanding like a bullfrog lol. And I had a beautiful G above high C. A clear perfect fifth higher than my own instructor could play. Never-the-less he kept warning me to "not play with a closed throat". Even though I had much more range than did he. That and you cant get your throat any more "open" than when it physically inflates three shirt sizes larger at the neck.
The key ingredient missing here is critical thinking.
Observe, analyze, test, re-test and observe. Asking questions is key to critical thinking. Otherwise all we may have left are helpful sounding platitudes but those which have no real use except as harmless sayings that don't really do anything for us. Conventional thinking produces conventional results. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:35 am Post subject:
I had this exact same problem many years ago. I got rid of it by practicing Schlossberg and multi-octave scales with a pair of cheap earplugs in. When you wear earplugs, you can really tell when your throat closes. With enough Schlossberg and scales up there, you'll break the habit quickly.
Try it! It sure worked for me.
Also, I used to practice breathing with a "Ho" vowel which really relaxed and opened my throat up. That might be useful as well for you.
I find now that when I ascend into the high register, my throat really opens - it's just a habit now. I create the pressure for the high notes with the tongue and airspeed, rather than by constricting the throat. The shift for me happens around a high D.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:01 am Post subject:
It's not really anatomically possible to "close the throat". For that to happen your trachea would have to collapse, and if that were to happen you'd have bigger problems than what you are dealing with now!
When we cut off the airstream in the way many describe as closing the throat, what we are usually doing is tensing up the back of the tongue and raising it while also tensing the muscles of the soft palate and lowering it until the two meet or almost meet.
In extreme cases, the muscles of the vocal chords are also involved causing further constriction of the airstream by grunting and groaning, which often can be heard.
Note that if just the back of the tongue and soft palate are involved, no throat sounds will be heard (but if air escapes into the sinus area due to Velopharyngeal Insufficiency (VPI) while this is happening, a snoring-like noise can be heard).
This bad habit is easy to develop because it's pretty natural to want to tense up when attempting something that takes a lot of physical effort. Though they are not supposed to, weight lifters often strain, and grunt and groan as they lift heavy weights. If a weight lifter does this, it's not right, but he or she will probably still successfully lift the weight. But if a brass player strains, and/or grunts and groans cutting off the airstream while trying to play a higher note, well, it's literally over before it could even begin.
Once this habit has established itself, it can be difficult to get rid of - but not impossible. Here are my suggestions:
• If you don't already articulate the way Herbert Clarke and Claude Gordon (and many others) have advocated, using what is referred to as K-Modified (KTM) or Dorsal Tonguing, it will be very helpful if you learn to and from now on, tongue this way. KTM tonguing keeps the tongue more forward in the mouth and reduces the chances of inadvertently raising the back of the tongue incorrectly.
• For now, absolutely stay away from the higher notes where this problem begins to manifest itself. Every time you let it happen, you are reinforcing the habit.
• Practicing the Part 1 Exercises in Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach book where you hold very low and pedal notes "as long as you have air and longer" with an attempted crescendo as you run out of air will help you to learn the habit of being able to blow as hard as you can (as you run out of air and try to crescendo) all the while staying completely relaxed in the areas of the vocal chords and back of the tongue / soft palate (it's impossible to play a pedal note with those areas tense as you need a big, wide stream of air to sustain a pedal note). Doing these exercises will also build up your air power (ability to blow hard and generated air pressure). The stronger your blowing muscles are, the less effort a higher note is going to require from you, and this lessens the chances of you straining incorrectly when attempting a higher note.
• Practice basic Flexibilites that do not climb into the range where you have the problem. Eventually with time, slowly and patiently increase the range of the Flexibility exercises and you'll find yourself overcoming this problem.
• Practice Clarke Technical Study Number 1, single tongued (KTM) for a week, then slurred every other week, with just one repeat on each exercise. And just as with the Flexibilities, do not climb into the range where you have the problem. After a while, add a half step up every week or two and eventually the problem will be ancient history for you.
I went through this myself when I was 17. All of a sudden I started choking off the air when I tried to slur from an E to a G on top the staff. It was very frustrating. But eventually I overcame the problem. You can, too.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
We often feel sensations or tension in the throat. We cannot consciously control these muscles while playing; if you could then the fix would be quick and easy. What happens in the oral cavity controls the throat, mostly tongue and jaw position. We also tend to blow so hard that we can no longer control the embouchure aperture. The harder we blow, the more work our muscles have to do to keep us together (bullfrog neck or pinched embouchure).
Focused intensity rather than power seems to be the key. Balance between air and aperture. _________________ Kevin
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Closing the throat?
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
I've come to the realisation that I have a bad habit of CLOSING my throat up the higher I go - adding a LOT of tension, and greatly diminished the freedom of the air flow up there, making the double G VERY difficult to "slide" up to (although I touched on it a couple times, showing that I physically am capable of making it happen).
You guys got any useful tips on relieving that tension to make those notes flow a lot easier?
Phyllis Stork, of Stork mouthpieces, has written about this. She said that it's a common problem caused by the trumpet/mouthpiece combination being so open and free blowing that players subconsciously raise the tongue and tighten the vocal cords to compensate. At some point, they just can't get any tighter, but they still aren't creating the compression and support they need.
One solution: try using tighter equipment with more resistance in either the mouthpiece and/or the trumpet.
She wrote that it's amazing how often trumpeters will complain about their really open equipment feeling "stuffy," but when she gives them a tighter mouthpiece to try, they'll say "Aha! That's it! Much better!" Trent Austin said the same thing in his recent Brass Chats interview video with Monster Oil.
Give it a try. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 15 Jan 2017 Posts: 11 Location: Hurst Texas
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Closing the throat?
Quote:
One solution: try using tighter equipment with more resistance in either the mouthpiece and/or the trumpet.
She wrote that it's amazing how often trumpeters will complain about their really open equipment feeling "stuffy," but when she gives them a tighter mouthpiece to try, they'll say "Aha! That's it! Much better!" Trent Austin said the same thing in his recent Brass Chats interview video with Monster Oil.
Give it a try.
This is exactly what helped me when I was having issues with this several months ago! I switched from a 3C to a 14A4A and while my body still wants to tense and close my throat from years of habit, it no longer does so as a necessity when playing. _________________ "Live as few men have dared to dream!"
Trumpet: Bach Strad - 43 - Light Weight Bell
Schilke 14
Flugel: Yahmaha - YFH 731
Curry 3FL - Y
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:25 am Post subject:
John Mohan wrote:
When we cut off the airstream in the way many describe as closing the throat, what we are usually doing is tensing up the back of the tongue and raising it while also tensing the muscles of the soft palate and lowering it until the two meet or almost meet.
In extreme cases, the muscles of the vocal chords are also involved causing further constriction of the airstream by grunting and groaning, which often can be heard.
Note that if just the back of the tongue and soft palate are involved, no throat sounds will be heard (but if air escapes into the sinus area due to Velopharyngeal Insufficiency (VPI) while this is happening, a snoring-like noise can be heard).
This matches my experience as well. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
And this goes back to something I've posted about a few times...
Sometimes it doesn't matter what we (as individual players) believe is happening, or what we believe we need to think/believe whilst practicing or what gear we need.... what matters is that the end result is correct.
The "closing the throat" line to me has always been a metaphor for tension just as the "use the diaphragm" line is a metaphor for using your muscles to compress the lungs like a bellows.... the throat doesn't really close, but if that's what it feels like is happening and by thinking "relax the throat" you get the right results, then it's fine to believe that (likewise in the case of my other example, the diaphragm is an involuntary muscle and you can't use it consciously, but if it causes you to do what's necessary to get the right results then that's fine).
Likewise, some of us might believe that certain types of gear are "more open" when it might actually be tighter but allows us to relax - it doesn't really matter as long as the results are correct.
Fundamentally, this is why the "get a good teacher" recommendation is always far more important than it seems - how someone else interprets and responds to our favourite pet-metaphors they've read from our posts here could be incredibly helpful to them, or it could be harmful, it all depends on the results it inspires in them... and this is why a good teacher is vital - that good teacher can tell whether the instruction has been implemented properly and can either reinforce it or offer an alternative explanation to correct it if implemented incorrectly.
Absolutely **excellent** demonstration/instruction video, Jon!! Thanks for making/sending, I'm gonna watch this and aim to imitate. Again, super-great video for developing players and experienced players alike _________________ ATB
Wow, did not expect to get this kind of response as I made the video to address a completely different set of problems. I was only hoping that there was some info that might help. I have a range play list that might help some other aspects as well. All of my stuff is just to provoke thought. In your case I am so glad you found something that may have helped.
Best, Jon _________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips
Wow, did not expect to get this kind of response as I made the video to address a completely different set of problems. I was only hoping that there was some info that might help. I have a range play list that might help some other aspects as well. All of my stuff is just to provoke thought. In your case I am so glad you found something that may have helped.
Best, Jon
Totally understood. I think what it comes down to is that when we DO get bogged down into pedagogical terms, everyone defines them differently, and so many different solutions apply to what, for example, five guys might all call "closing the throat". It's definitely true that different ways of thinking/visulaizing our playing directly influence he sound that comes as a result. And by that, we NEED different explanations because we understand thing diferrently.
any case-
I gave it a shot today - didn't aim for the G, but using your "caw"- mouth/throat shape, I was making some of the nicest sounding high E's I've played to date. Thanks again Jon!Been using your videos for a while, but this is my first time seeing that one. _________________ ATB
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject:
Turkle wrote:
I had this exact same problem many years ago. I got rid of it by practicing Schlossberg and multi-octave scales with a pair of cheap earplugs in. When you wear earplugs, you can really tell when your throat closes. With enough Schlossberg and scales up there, you'll break the habit quickly.
Try it! It sure worked for me.
Also, I used to practice breathing with a "Ho" vowel which really relaxed and opened my throat up. That might be useful as well for you.
I find now that when I ascend into the high register, my throat really opens - it's just a habit now. I create the pressure for the high notes with the tongue and airspeed, rather than by constricting the throat. The shift for me happens around a high D.
Good luck!
Using a Silent Brass mute system accomplishes the same thing, for a lot more money...
I like the HO, or WHOA! for breathing but I've also found that I need to keep students breathing through the corners of their mouths rather than take the whole piece down all the time and breathe directly through the center of their mouth. Often there's no time to do this in real playing. Another effective way of showing the feeling of breathing is to hold one's hand vertically and perpendicular to one's face, centered left to right, then inhale. Hearing the wind rush by both sides of the hand develops a feeling of deep breathing for many. As I get older, I know the first thing to go is the breathing. It takes effort to breathe deeply and often we are able to get away with less than adequate breathing, at least for a while until it becomes a bad habit. Pull it in. Good luck.
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