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jicetp
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Joined: 30 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:40 pm Post subject: Is it me, my horn, my mouthpiece...? |
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Hello
Lately I had the good fortune of subbing in different Symphony Orchestras and I have this issue which I want to adress.
I feel I lack a certain ' brilliance ' both in sound but mostly with my attacks.
I can sound ' more brilliant ' and have a clear 'pop ' with the attacks, but at a larger volume ( than desired ).
So, my question would be : how can I cope with it ?
My trumpet is a Wild Thing ( Mild Thing I should call her ), mouthpieces are 3/5/7 Cs.
I might lean towards buying a new horn, since I have tried some friend's and found that different horns produce different results ! Incredible find 
What's is your take on this subject ?
Thanks
JiCe |
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wohlrab
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| PRACTICE! |
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bach_again
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Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Is it me, my horn, my mouthpiece...? |
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| jicetp wrote: | Hello
Lately I had the good fortune of subbing in different Symphony Orchestras and I have this issue which I want to adress.
I feel I lack a certain ' brilliance ' both in sound but mostly with my attacks.
I can sound ' more brilliant ' and have a clear 'pop ' with the attacks, but at a larger volume ( than desired ).
So, my question would be : how can I cope with it ?
My trumpet is a Wild Thing ( Mild Thing I should call her ), mouthpieces are 3/5/7 Cs.
I might lean towards buying a new horn, since I have tried some friend's and found that different horns produce different results ! Incredible find
What's is your take on this subject ?
Thanks
JiCe |
Could just be a little imbalance between you and your gear. With some exceptions, I never really get along with trumpets whose bells are as open as a wide thing (72 or bigger). I prefer lighter horns too.
I have played many horns, and the few that help improve exactly what you mention are the Stomvi S3, *some* Bach 43LR / 37, Sonare 802RL, Hub Van Laar Chuck Findley, Schagerl Morrison Meister.
Of those, I settled on the S3. For now 
Of those, I couldn't believe how INCREDIBLY variable the Bach's were. I played 3 43LR's in the same week and all 3 couldn't have been more dramatically different. I found the anniversary model to be a DOG!!! And the 70s/80s beat up 43LR was the best - go figure!!
As for the mouthpieces - look into something similar with a tighter entry to the throat before changing horn. (also clean your horn if you haven't....) Those Bach's can have very relaxed shoulders into the throat and it makes articulation heavy, dull and more work. It works for some people, but for me this is the area I need tightened up. I'm sorry I can't suggest many pieces to try as I am only starting to look into this myself. The Curry 600 series has a tighter shoulder. That's about all I can say for now!
Hope this helps! OFC you know "PRACTICE", the above represents my own battle with a similar predicament.
Best,
Mike
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I rather suspect you consider two aspects: mouthpiece and yourself.
I know how. A wild thing plays, and you should be fine with them.
But, of your mpcs, why not go for the middle, more orchestral style one, a 5C.
Then, work on the issues you describe, work on attacks. And work on centering your sound more. There's so many ways to do this who knows what will work for you? For me, I do breath attacks, pitch bending, and very soft variations of Bo Neilson's 'pooh' exercises.
Then, sally forth and play!
Cheers
Andy
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Dayton
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I might lean towards buying a new horn, since I have tried some friend's and found that different horns produce different results. |
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you get the "pop" and brilliance you want -- using your usual mouthpiece and approach to playing -- on other trumpets, but not in your Wild Thing. If so, it seems to that the simplest thing to do is to (sell your Wild Thing and) buy a horn that works better for you. Find a music store(s) with a good selection and play as many horns as you can. Good luck! |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:07 am Post subject: mouthpiece |
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Use a different mouthpiece. What brands of mouthpieces do you use? Have you tried a Dennis Wick or a Curry mouthpiece? Buying a mouthpiece would be an inexpensive and possibly a quick fix.The right mouthpiece makes a huge difference.
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Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:45 am Post subject: Re: mouthpiece |
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duplicate
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King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e4 cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 9e cornet mouthpiece
Bach 5 B cornet mouthpiece
Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zaferis
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:38 am Post subject: |
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I'm inclined to go along the "imbalance" idea; you , the mouthpiece and the trumpet have to work together.
You, yes you must practice the sound and attack that you want to reproduce it..
The mouthpiece must fit your chops and allow you to produce tone and articulation quality upon demand while balancing flow/compression with the instrument. Very simply: Rim-a balance between comfort and artilucaltion clarity, Cup-shape and depth for tone/register support, and throat/backbore for air flow/compression.
The instrument must hold that tone and project it to the audience... That Orchestral tone is different - I think you're noticing, in part, the instrument (bell in particular) is not holding your "orchestral" sound together-too spread, too "commercial". The Bach CL 239 comes to mind-a brilliant tone that holds together through the Orch. and in big halls thus it's popularity.
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dkwolfe
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Joined: 01 May 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | | I rather suspect you consider two aspects: mouthpiece and yourself. |
Good Morning;
I'll second that, and add a bit of experience, specifically regarding mouthpieces. Through lots of trial and improvement, I've found that a 3C makes me sound about the best. I had been raised on the "professionals play a 1C, so if you want to be good, that's what you need to play" thing. Thankfully, I have been studying with someone who has said multiple times "sound is the most important thing, play the equipment that gives you the sound you need or want". He is also a Hammond Design artist (great mouthpieces, and great customer service), so I progressed from the Bach 1X that I started taking lessons with, to the HD 1.25C equivalent, and then to the HD 3C equivalent. Every step got better, and now I use the 3C size for just about everything (3E for lead playing).
After playing the HD 3C for a while, I wound up with the Giddings and Webster (Ivan Giddings is also a fantastic person, and their customer service is also fantastic) version of a 3C, and it's in stainless steel, and I figured I'd give it a try. In a few ensemble rehearsals, the guy I study with (who was directing) complemented us on our sound, and a week later in my lesson, he said "that is the best I've ever heard you sound". I was playing the stainless mouthpiece (I didn't tell him I wasn't playing the HD piece).
Point: the 3C size is what I need to sound my best, and the stainless mouthpiece gives me that sound, with an extra added vibrancy or brilliance to my sound, without adding brightness. So now that's what I use all the time.
Were I you, I would find the size mouthpiece that you sound the best on, and then try as many different versions of that size as you can.
Good Luck,
D
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| If you're trying to be an orchestral player, get a Bach or Yamaha C trumpet and standard orchestral-size mouthpiece and brand. Drop the Flip Oaks stuff. |
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dkwolfe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | | If you're trying to be an orchestral player, get a Bach or Yamaha C trumpet and standard orchestral-size mouthpiece and brand. Drop the Flip Oaks stuff. |
Good Morning;
With all due respect, this is the idiotic kind of advice that prevents people from getting better. When you evaluate someone's sound on what you SEE instead of what you HEAR, you do nothing but hold people back.
Bill Vacchiano would change mouthpieces multiple times in a piece, and often played his Eb/D trumpet in concerts with the rest of the section. Sergei Nakariakov plays everything on 10C mouthpiece. Several players use Shires C trumpets in major orchestras. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT EQUIPMENT YOU USE, ITS THE SOUND THAT MATTERS! If you cannot see past that, you are limiting yourself and everyone else.
I've spent several years trying to overcome that kind of stupidity; I'm not going to sit by and let anyone say "you have to play a Bach or Yamaha to sound good" and have it go unchallenged. Sure, those horns make it easier, but when Bud Herseth wanted to play a Bb in the section in Chicago, he didn't grab either one of those. It's about the sound, end of story.
D
p.s. My main horn is a Yamaha Xeno.
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Last edited by dkwolfe on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:54 am Post subject: Re: Is it me, my horn, my mouthpiece...? |
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Which model is your Wild Thing trumpet, a Bb, or a C?
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Have you checked your mouthpiece/receiver gap? Sometimes a gap that's too small will be detrimental to the response of a trumpet. If your gap is less than about 1/8", try putting a piece of thin tape on the mouthpiece shank to increase the gap and see if that makes any difference.
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: |
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There's a thread laying around here from 4 or 5 years back about learning to "play higher in the pitch". Can't remember the OP, but I suggest you look into that. Bottom line, it is possible to raise things by how one is blowing and by which parts of the embouchure are working. Many of us spend a lot of time trying to relax our muscles as we play and we can make a great sound, but when placed next to other fine players, especially in orchestra, where pitch is very exposed, we find ourselves sounding a bit dull and flat. We've learned to relax all of the embouchure and play with less-than energized wind by trying o relax too much. It's a matter of moving the wind through the embouchure (and everything else between the lungs and the end of your mouthpiece) in a manner that makes clearer and vibrant pulsations.
While I'm not a student of him, I'd also recommend you try the Bill Adam leadpipe exercise- see if you are playing up to a concert Eb (1st space F on Bb tpt) when you play/blow through only your mouthpiece and open leadpipe. I'm betting your a bit flat right now. Work to blow it up to pitch, in that you raise things without pressing harder or thinning our your tone. Easy test- you don't have to change any equipment to try. Play in the same manner on the entire trumpet if you have to make some adjustments to raise pitch. If you're up to the Eb already, look elsewhere. Good luck. |
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jicetp
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Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 987
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the answers/tips.
I tried some horns yesterday and I now know what the matter with my issue.
I don't have the right horn ( for me ) to get what I want ( sound wise )
!i think I got acustomed to my horn ( 5 years now ) and didn't notice while practicing the lack of some points.
It's been some time I have been thinking renewing my arsenal.
I might begin a new post to get some points of view on different horns.
Clearly, my issue is the horn ( or horn/mouthpiece combo ) since yesterday I managed to produce ' clear ' ' popping ' attacks with my 7C on a Bach 37, a B&S XX37 and a Yamaha Chicago.=, though these horns felt and sounded differently.
See you in a different thread
Thanks
JiCe |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Buying equipment to solve playing issues always works....
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HornnOOb
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Maybe muscle tension?
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| dkwolfe wrote: | ...
With all due respect, this is the idiotic kind of advice that prevents people from getting better. When you evaluate someone's sound on what you SEE instead of what you HEAR, you do nothing but hold people back ... Bill Vacchiano ... Nakariakov ... Shires ... IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT EQUIPMENT YOU USE, ITS THE SOUND THAT MATTERS! ... I've spent several years trying to overcome that kind of stupidity ... "you have to play a Bach or Yamaha to sound good" ... Sure, those horns make it easier ... Bud Herseth ... It's about the sound, end of story ... My main horn is a Yamaha Xeno. |
Alright, now that we have that sorted out. |
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rufflicks
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Trying a horn is like taking a bite of Pizza.
A. Why not you will either like it or you wont
B. If you do lke a particular slice you can add it to your menu.
Oh... and you do not need permission to take a test drive.
Best, Jon
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| jicetp wrote: | Thanks for all the answers/tips.
I tried some horns yesterday and I now know what the matter with my issue.
I don't have the right horn ( for me ) to get what I want ( sound wise )
!i think I got acustomed to my horn ( 5 years now ) and didn't notice while practicing the lack of some points.
It's been some time I have been thinking renewing my arsenal.
I might begin a new post to get some points of view on different horns.
Clearly, my issue is the horn ( or horn/mouthpiece combo ) since yesterday I managed to produce ' clear ' ' popping ' attacks with my 7C on a Bach 37, a B&S XX37 and a Yamaha Chicago.=, though these horns felt and sounded differently.
See you in a different thread
Thanks
JiCe |
If your sound lacks brilliance, you can try a tighter backbore or shallower cup. Only requires a small change. If you require more articulation or 'pop' to the attack, generally it means you need a sharper bite on your rim. Again, only a small difference, don't go crazy.
But if you want someone to help you, choose which of the mouthpieces you think you sound the best on, play some stuff you're having problems with and send the recording to GR. They'll sort you out.
If it's you, Brian will tell you. If it's the mouthpiece, he'll tell you. If it's both (which is normally the case because you do weird things when you play on a mouthpiece that doesn't suit your face and horn), he'll tell you.
Listen to him. It'll be much cheaper than buying a new horn.
Also, you really can't evaluate how you sound playing different equipment yourself unless you use a recording device. What you hear when you play is not what comes out the instrument for a lot of reasons. |
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