| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Bflatman wrote: | | I think you miss my point. |
I think you miss mine (and I think I get yours and if I do, then I disagree with some of it).
| Quote: | | Mouthpiece buzzing is quite different to tone generation and tone production on a trumpet, the resistance is quite different. In many ways because the resistance is so vastly different, many report difficulty buzzing without an instrument. |
Indeed - it's quite different, which is the point... it's possible to play the instrument (up to a point) without producing a buzz yourself at all. You can experience it yourself by simply "walking it out" - play a note and slowly remove the mouthpiece and you may well find that the buzz stops and it's just air passing through...
This only works up to a point, though, and if you want to play high, you wind up needing to produce the buzz yourself - lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing can help with building the strength and co-ordination for this, if done right.
Should every player buzz just because Herseth, Sandoval and a very long list of other top players have done? Not necessarily...
Should buzzing be written off for everyone on the basis of some players not finding any benefit from it? Absolutely not.
| Quote: | This is simply not the case with pedal tones Arban Clarke and anything else that is practiced as mouthpiece/instrument system that does allow good tone production and development of skill.
I deeply question the value of practicing in a way that is in many ways unrelated to actual play and playing conditions. |
Actually yes, it's precisely the case with pedal tones for most players - most players cannot produce pedal tones properly without some kind of embouchure distortion (including dropping the jaw significantly from its position for all other playing), which to use your words is: "practicing in a way that is in many ways unrelated to actual play".
This was Reinhardt's reason for forbidding his trumpet students to practice pedals - he felt they'd do more harm than good persuing it (and suggested there were correlations with other playing problems)... on the other hand, CG produced some incredible students too and he actively encouraged pedals...
Maybe they were both right for some players and wrong for others - or maybe pedals are neither necessarily essential nor necessarily detrimental?
That's not to say that it's necessarily impossible to produce pedal tones without embouchure distortion (though for some embouchure types, it might as well be), it's just much more difficult and most players don't even attempt it - they simpy produce the sound and assume they're doing good....
In some cases, trying to play pedal tones can cause a great deal of harm - I cited the case of Bud Brisbois in my earlier post, there's an example of an astonishing player who found that practicing pedal tones near enough destroyed his playing (until he stopped doing them).
This isn't necessarily to say that there's definitely no benefits to doing them (or even doing them "wrong")... just that in the majority of cases it absolutely does belong on a list of things that aren't related to actual playing and may or may not be useful.
| Quote: | | This would be somewhat similar to practicing marathon running by taking your running shoes off and running a marathon without shoes. Such a practice could if it is to correct a fault, result in better running, but simply running without shoes could detrimentally affect running with shoes. |
No, it would be akin to suggesting that a serious runner might find benefits to mixed training - perhaps using a stepper machine, lifting weights or riding a bicycle rather than training by only running.
I think most athletes woud scoff at the idea that the best training is 100% focused on the actual activity itself... and likewise, I think most players also scoff at that idea too by their actions, even if they claim otherwise.
| Quote: | | Lets not confuse good practice on long tones Arban Clarke and Pedals, or indeed any other practice with an instrument, with buzzing which can encourage a different embouchure and approach to playing, which could easily mess up good development. |
Let's not confuse good practice on any topic with bad practice... and let's not conflate exercises that pretty much all major schools of thought celebrate (Arban, Clarke, long tones) with contentious subjects like pedal tones which some schools encourage and some forbid.
And again, many players practice pedals with a different embouchure than they use for their other playing... this won't necessarily mess up good development, but it could just as easily be a waste of time - just as buzzing could be if totally unstructured and without a definite goal in mind.
| Quote: | | I say again buzzing is not part of a performance, playing notes on an instrument is, and therefore all the practice methods that consist of playing notes on an instrument are relevant. buzzing like a kazoo is not, unless it is specifically indicated. |
Okay, but I can say again that pedals are not part of a performance - and the differences in the embouchure most players employ to produce them are not required for performance either.... we can go round and round in circles on this, but either things that aren't necessarily relevant in performance are all bad, or they're not all bad - I'm not the one being inconsistent on this point.
Ironically, a performance I was involved with the other week required us to play kazoo's... it turned out that the best way to get the kazoo sound to project was to mouthpiece buzz into the kazoo's 
| Quote: | | When you say practicing what you need to do is exactly my point, what we are talking about here is a practice method that in my opinion must be restricted to when you need it, and not practiced when you dont. |
I don't think it is exactly your point - perhaps you misread my statement or perhaps it was poorly written (or perhaps I'm misreading yours), I'm not sure....
But what I was saying was that you need to practice the things that you need to practice in order to get your best results - if you find a small amount of buzzing beneficial to you then include it, if you find a small amount of pedal practice beneficial then include it... if you find buzzing detrimental then don't do it and if you find pedals detrimental then don't do it.
| Quote: | | The OP said that the reason he uses buzzing is because it might help. That is no reason to practice something. |
It depends why he thinks it might help and what he thinks it might help - unless it's going to be detrimental it shouldn't be a massive problem... most of us have to go through the process of finding out what does and doesn't work for us when we build up our practice routines - whether that's jumping between schools of thought (eg: Maggio -> CG -> BE -> Reinhardt -> Callet -> etc etc etc) or introducing things to our routines and chopping the things that don't help, that experimentation is part of the process.
Of course mouthpiece buzzing (like pedal tones or anything else for that matter) would be better under the tutelage of a good teacher, but everything trumpet related would be - if the option of working through it with a teacher is there, it shoud be taken.
| Quote: | | I could do pencil exercise for 1 hour ,mouthpiece buzz for an hour, digeridoo for an hour. After that 3 hours strenuous practice how much more advanced would I be than if I had simply practiced my trumpet for 3 hours. The fact is I would be going backwards. |
How do you know you'd be going backwards, have you tried it?
For some players, practicing the trumpet for 3 hours every day would send them backwards (if they don't have the endurance to do it properly and just mash their face up day after day)....
I'm not sure I've seen any sane person recommending 1hr plus of pencil exercises?
No kind of practice that's overdone will do any good, and that includes overdoing the practice time on the trumpet itself.
A sensible mix of multiple things (eg: <10mins of calisthenics like the pencil trick and buzzing, plus an 3-4 hours on the horn) will do me a lot more good than just doing the 3-4 hours on the horn... adding 10 mins of pedals into the mix sends me backwards - but that's me, clearly you don't find pedals to be detrimental and that's fine too.
There's a certain amount of individuality about this that too many players (and sadly many lesser teachers too) dogmatically tread all over...
| Quote: | | The best practice for trumpet in my opinion is practicing trumpet. |
I'm not sure whether you mean that this is the the most important part of a practice session/day (I'd agree) or whether you mean that practicing trumpet only is the best form of practice (for me, I wouldn't agree - I wouldn't agree with this as an absolute statement either).
| Quote: | | If a teacher suggests mouthpiece buzzing then that is the correct thing to do, but not just cos I want to. It has to have a developmental goal, and be done in the correct way. |
What if that teacher is a mindless zombie that only suggests mouthpiece buzzing because they're walking the student through a textbook which insists upon it?
Is that any better a reason to do it than because the student reads it in a book themselves, or even reads it on TH?
What if that teacher reinforces an incorrect use of buzzing and/or the student is seeing negative results from buzzing - should they keep doing it just because the teacher says so?
I'm always glad to see people encouraging others to get a teacher... but there are plenty of poor teachers out there, and probably dozens if not hundreds for every top quality teacher like some of the posters we have here.
| Quote: | | It has been said that many who do the pencil exercise in fact do it wrong. Should we continue with squandering vast of amounts of practice time on worthless exercises simply because we dont know how to do them right or if we need them at all. |
I could counter (again) that most players who practice pedals do it wrong ... Does that mean we should (quote) " continue with squandering vast of amounts of practice time on worthless exercises simply because we dont know how to do them right"?
Even if we're seeing benefits from doing them wrong?
Ofcourse, the best solution would be to get a good teacher who understands those exercises and have them explain how to do them properly, wouldn't it - in both cases. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
A perhaps apocryphal story about Ray Crisara:
I once heard 2nd hand (and never confirmed it from the source) that Ray Crisara advocated against practicing lip slurs on the 7th partial - you shouldn't play Bb above the staff open. You were to instead skip from the G to the C. The reasoning given to me was that doing so was practicing a mistake. How often do you try to play that Bb open vs. trying to play the C above it open?
On some level the reasoning makes sense even if you reject it. I laughed when I first heard it, but I can't deny that it's coherent, reasonable, and thoughtful. Assuming the story is true (I never confirmed it, but it makes sense in the context of his general teaching philosophy), you can't deny his success as a player or teacher either.
A lot of what we practice has some sort of trade off. Do the benefits of practicing Colin-like slurs outweigh practicing the "mistake?" Do the benefits of practicing the mouthpiece outweigh the time lost or differences in tone production? Do the benefits of playing pedals outweigh the potential destabilization? Do the benefits of playing notes until empty (a la Gordon) outweigh the potential for introducing tension into the wind?
Thoughtful players should be considering and reconsidering their practice routine periodically so as to maintain a healthy career. What seems absurd and useless to us today might be the thing that saves us next decade. We should boldly follow whatever path we're on now, but some self-examination is healthy from time to time.
Trumpet playing is ultimately a practical act that doesn't care about anyone's philosophy. It either works or it doesn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JoseLindE4 wrote: |
Trumpet playing is ultimately a practical act that doesn't care about anyone's philosophy. It either works or it doesn't. |
A superb post, especially this line.
We each find our own route to our results - we might believe totally different things, we might practice different things... but in the end, what matters most is the results |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| snichols wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | Tyler Alexander wrote: | Not sure what the problem is. When I MP buzz my tone is very airy and inconsistent. If I don't apply more pressure and I slur to high notes it sounds like I'm just lip buzzing. I don't think applying more pressure is the answer.
thanks |
Hi Tyler,
What your mouthpiece buzzing sounds like has little or nothing to do with trumpet playing. I wouldn't worry about it.
Cheers,
John Mohan |
John, that took you almost 3 hours from when the OP posted. I was getting worried you weren't feeling well. |
My wife thinks I spend too much time on the Trumpet Herald. Maybe she's right... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mm55 wrote: | | Bflatman wrote: | | If you constantly practice poor tone generation on the mouthpiece alone surely that is that going to carry over into your playing on the instrument. |
I have never heard of anyone advocating that anyone "constantly practice poor tone generation on the mouthpiece alone." But I guess you've defeated a straw-man argument of your own invention, so there's that. |
I never said that anyone advocated playing bad tones what I said is it has been said by others and I agree with them, that it is far too easy to generate a bad buzz because you cant tell what a good buzz sounds like.
Its easy to tell if a tone is bad when played on a trumpet. So the key to developing good tone should be playing on the trumpet.
Are you suggesting that all buzzed tones are good tones, because I would take issue with that. Maybe your ears are better than mine but one buzz on a mouthpiece sounds much like another buzz on the mouthpiece to me. Just blasting out a buzz constantly is not my view of good focused practice.
In my opinion buzzing has its place but you have to be careful how you use it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe the best thing is to leave this discussion where it is. I have my beliefs and you have yours.
The world should be big enough for us to hold our own opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bflatman wrote: | Maybe the best thing is to leave this discussion where it is. I have my beliefs and you have yours.
The world should be big enough for us to hold our own opinion. |
Indeed... it could get rather lengths and circular otherwise...
It's useful to have good-faith disagreements, it can be educational for both sides (and for bystanders reading) but it can often drag on too long also. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TrpPro
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1471
Location: Riverview, FL
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bflatman wrote: |
Mouthpiece buzzing is quite different to tone generation and tone production on a trumpet, ...... |
I disagree. When I play a note on the trumpet at an mf volume and slowly remove the mouthpiece (continuing to play and doing my best to keep the embouchure effort the same) the mouthpiece seamlessly continues to produce a vibrating pitch, sometimes sliding up a whole step or so from the note that was being played on the trumpet. Continuing the buzz in the mouthpiece and slowly inserting back into the trumpet, the trumpet reproduces the same pitch as before. My goal has never been to be able to do this, nor have I ever done exercises trying to accomplish this, but it's what happens.
So, my conclusion is that playing the mouthpiece, at least for me, is pretty much exactly the same as playing the trumpet.
Since the mouthpiece goes up slightly in pitch when removing from the horn, I also conclude that playing a pitch on the mouthpiece is a little easier than playing the same pitch on the trumpet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok I will bite,
So what you are saying is as long as you begin your buzz by playing the mouthpiece in the trumpet and then remove the mouthpiece from the instrument you get a useable mouthpiece buzz. Surely that reinforces that the trumpet is the key to getting the buzz right, otherwise you wouldnt need to start the buzz on the trumpet.
You go on to say that the pitch rises when the mouthpiece is separated from the trumpet, that is in effect saying that buzz tones are a different pitch to equivalent trumpet tones of supposedly the same pitch. Surely that is saying that buzzed pitches are not true pitches and therefore buzzing does not give the right feedback of pitch, so buzzing is inconsistent with pitch centering.
You also say that playing a pitch on a mouthpiece is easier than playing a pitch on a trumpet, surely this means that because the trumpet is harder to centre and play pitches on than the mouthpiece, the mouthpiece has not done a good job of preparing you to centre a pitch on the trumpet.
To be of value as a tone practice, I would want the mouthpiece pitch to be consistent with the trumpet pitch and just as difficult to generate, and it just isnt.
The bottom line is all we have here is inconsistent pitches that are easy to create.
Your manner of practice is sensible in my opinion, however I believe what you have said illustrates the uncertainty of grabbing a mouthpiece then buzzing on it and expecting that to be a good practice for tone generation, when you have no idea what pitch you are working on in the first place and if it is centred.
Is it not clear from this description that buzzing the mouthpiece does not deliver consistency of tone and therefore cannot be a good tone practice tool. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bflatman.
What, to you, are the positive/correct reasons to incude buzzing in a practice session?
In what way is the pitch of the buzz or the tone produced important to this?
Fwiw - I took TptPro's comment as clarification that he does actually buzz at all times, he's saying that he's not one of those that relies on the standing wave producing the vibrations within normal range (because when he removes the mouthpiece, he continues to get a buzz instead of getting air like many players do).
I don't see why the pitch changing is necessarily a problem - if he hits the pitch he intends to when playing the trumpet, then surely it's NHNF (no harm = no foul)?
Clearly if that difference in pitch isn't causing problems when practicing the trumpet itself, then that difference isn't a problem - it isn't cementing a false sensation of pitch in the chops. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would add that the intention of the OP appears to be to use mouthpiece buzzing to perfect tone. and it is this point that I am speaking on.
Basically I am arguing that trying to perfect tone by using mouthpiece buzzing is not going to work, I see no tone palette in a mouthpiece buzz and by arguing with me on this I believe that you guys are taking the opposite view which must mean that you believe mouthpiece buzzing will perfect trumpet tones.
Could you guys explain to me the mechanics of perfecting trumpet tones by mouthpiece buzzing because to be frank I dont see it.
Over to you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TKSop
You asked
What, to you, are the positive/correct reasons to incude buzzing in a practice session?
To me tone generation is about the good formation of the embouchure and good use of the lips/double reed. If I feel my tones are weak, I will remove the mouthpiece and buzz, If I achieve a solid buzz tone, I reinsert and work on tone. Sometimes the buzz is weak indicating a more fundamental issue needing work.
In what way is the pitch of the buzz or the tone produced important to this?
It isnt, buzzing is simply the lips working correctly and solidly and that is the foundation of good tone. Good tone is only revealed when the mouthpiece is in the receiver, but a poor buzz will not assure a good tone, and thats the reason for buzzing, to check fundamentals. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bflatman wrote: | | I would add that the intention of the OP appears to be to use mouthpiece buzzing to perfect tone. and it is this point that I am speaking on. |
I'm not sure the OP itself is all that clear, though he did clarify further down the first page that he means what you've represented above.
| Quote: | Basically I am arguing that trying to perfect tone by using mouthpiece buzzing is not going to work, I see no tone palette in a mouthpiece buzz and by arguing with me on this I believe that you guys are taking the opposite view which must mean that you believe mouthpiece buzzing will perfect trumpet tones.
Could you guys explain to me the mechanics of perfecting trumpet tones by mouthpiece buzzing because to be frank I dont see it.
Over to you. |
The tone palette in the buzz itself isn't the question - unless you can prove a correlation between the tone palette of the buzz and the tone palette of the resulting tone on the horn, I think we can move beyond that claim entirely... Especially as many players who practice buzzing still wind up playing the instrument using the standing wave rather than buzzing when they play.
I tend to believe that strong fundamentals will aid in the production of the best tone - in that sense, if practicing buzzing helps the player to improve their strength and co-ordination (ie: consistency of embouchure formation), then it will have a knock-on effect on tone, too.
If the buzz is weak, as the OP seems to be describing, then working to improve it (if done correctly) quite possibly would help improve tone... more mouthpiece buzzing may or may not be the best way to achieve that, but it's certainly one avenue to explore.
Last edited by TKSop on Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bflatman wrote: | TKSop
You asked
What, to you, are the positive/correct reasons to incude buzzing in a practice session?
To me tone generation is about the good formation of the embouchure and good use of the lips/double reed. If I feel my tones are weak, I will remove the mouthpiece and buzz, If I achieve a solid buzz tone, I reinsert and work on tone. Sometimes the buzz is weak indicating a more fundamental issue needing work. |
I think we all agree on more than we realise here, we're just applying that agreement differently...
For me, personally, I see a small amount of buzzing work (not hours per day, but small amounts - usually <5mins) as a preventative measure... I never find that "the buzz is weak" because I stay on top of it as a matter of course - it doesn't take much, but it's like brushing your teeth: a small amount of regular maintenance trumps potential discomfort and having to fix a more serious problem.
I suppose that brings up the purpose of practice... beyond a certain point, a decent amount of practice is about maintenance and consistency and much less is about actual progress (though I try not to admit this to myself too often, messes with motivation).
I view free buzzing similarly - it helps keep my chops consistently "in", and that prevents me from having as many off days.
Rim buzzing and leadpipe buzzing are a bit different, I don't do them nearly as often, more like monthly checkups than daily prevention.
| Quote: | In what way is the pitch of the buzz or the tone produced important to this?
It isnt, buzzing is simply the lips working correctly and solidly and that is the foundation of good tone. Good tone is only revealed when the mouthpiece is in the receiver, but a poor buzz will not assure a good tone, and thats the reason for buzzing, to check fundamentals. |
I agree that it isn't, which is why (to be honest) I was a little perplexed as to why we went there... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TKSop
We went there because I was sure I read a comment suggesting buzzing to practice tone, and I thought whoa, lets cut this off at the pass. Maybe I was a little strong but I didnt want a player wasting his efforts on something that would not reap rewards.
I agree we appear to be very much aligned although speaking in slightly different terms and that may be leading to some perceived differences.
I may differ from you in that I believe that once a weak buzz is discovered, I only need work briefly on mouthpiece alone to strengthen it but then swiftly place the mouthpiece back in the receiver.
I discovered long ago that mouthpiece buzzing often can lead me to blatty tones and rough notes if I buzz too long. It is therefore bad for me.
I find all the control and feedback necessary to correct my problems are available to me with the mouthpiece in the receiver, and I can work on good tones at the same time. So I prefer this approach.
I would add that I used mouthpiece buzzing extensively for the first 4 weeks I was learning the instrument and then abandoned it. I have done ok since and dont miss it.
I am not saying mouthpiece buzzing is wrong or bad and I certainly would not stop anyone doing it, but I believe it is unnecessary other than to ensure solid lip vibrations the core of good tone generation and is in my mind irrelevant for sophisticated practice for the perfection of tones. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TrpPro
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1471
Location: Riverview, FL
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I totally miscommunicated. I'll try to clarify.
| Bflatman wrote: | | So what you are saying is as long as you begin your buzz by playing the mouthpiece in the trumpet and then remove the mouthpiece from the instrument you get a useable mouthpiece buzz. |
Didn't intend to say that. I can easily start with a buzz first and insert the mouthpiece and get a clear tone on the horn right on pitch.
| Quote: | | You go on to say that the pitch rises when the mouthpiece is separated from the trumpet, that is in effect saying that buzz tones are a different pitch to equivalent trumpet tones of supposedly the same pitch. |
Sometimes the pitch doesn't slide up and stays right on the trumpet note. But I interpret an upward change in the pitch on the mouthpiece as meaning that my embouchure is working less hard when the mouthpiece is removed which would cause the pitch to increase.
| Quote: | | Surely that is saying that buzzed pitches are not true pitches and therefore buzzing does not give the right feedback of pitch, so buzzing is inconsistent with pitch centering. |
?
| Quote: | | You also say that playing a pitch on a mouthpiece is easier than playing a pitch on a trumpet, surely this means that because the trumpet is harder to centre and play pitches on than the mouthpiece, the mouthpiece has not done a good job of preparing you to centre a pitch on the trumpet. |
I don't know why the mouthpiece is easier to buzz off the horn, if, in fact, it is easier. It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. I was just making an observation.
| Quote: |
I believe what you have said illustrates the uncertainty of grabbing a mouthpiece then buzzing on it and expecting that to be a good practice for tone generation, when you have no idea what pitch you are working on in the first place and if it is centred. |
Not sure if "centered" really applies to a mouthpiece buzz. There aren't any slots in the main body of a siren scale. Whatever pitch you get is pretty much just someplace on that scale. What I’m saying, that seems to be true for me, is that the embouchure and the effort to create a pitch on the horn or on the mouthpiece is the same.
One thing that is useful for me is that playing a passage slowly on the mouthpiece and then on the horn will make the horn passage sound better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TKSop wrote: | | ... a certain amount of your success is about giving things a decent go, finding the things that suit you and working hard at the right things - which might not be exactly the same for you as they are for me (though there's bound to be significant overlap) |
That's a great point. Reminds me of Jeanne Pocius, who wrote that when we hear of a new-to-us (and credible) technique to help with something we need, we should give it three sincere tries with a good-faith effort. Take what works for us and leave the rest.
I've read James Thompson's method, and it makes sense to me. I've found other ways to work on what I need the most right now so I haven't launched into buzzing, but that doesn't mean I have doubts about his approach. I wouldn't discourage others from trying it, although I think it would be essential to learn it correctly.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dstdenis wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | | ... a certain amount of your success is about giving things a decent go, finding the things that suit you and working hard at the right things - which might not be exactly the same for you as they are for me (though there's bound to be significant overlap) |
That's a great point. Reminds me of Jeanne Pocius, who wrote that when we hear of a new-to-us (and credible) technique to help with something we need, we should give it three sincere tries with a good-faith effort. Take what works for us and leave the rest. |
Exactly - and sometimes it's even worth coming back to things that have been previously dismissed... it might be that at different stages of development, a player rejects something as not useful which later on they'd find much more useful.
Likewise, sometimes we'll find something useful and then find we can chop it out later on in our development without negative consequences, sometimes even with positive consequences. As a personal example, I once felt pedals were moderately useful so I'd include them in my daily routines - when I learned that I was doing it wrong and couldn't really do it right (ie: without embouchure distortion), I decided to cut them out as an experiment to see whether it was more useful to do them wrong or to not do them at all - in the end, I was surprised how much better off I was without them.
(Of course, this will apply more the earlier in development the player in question is). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gentlemen, step away from this thread and practice your instruments. Or enjoy some family time (which I know from personal experience the family would prefer to hearing more flexibilities, technical studies and range exercises).  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mm55
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1412
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Mohan wrote: | | Gentlemen, step away from this thread and practice your instruments. Or enjoy some family time (which I know from personal experience the family would prefer to hearing more flexibilities, technical studies and range exercises). |
So buzzing is bad, because you could be playing the trumpet instead. And even discussing buzzing is bad, because you could be playing the trumpet instead. So doesn't that mean that trolling the buzzing discussions is bad, because you could be playing the trumpet instead?
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
