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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 548
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Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I disagree with all the above, because both my Uncle and my Dad played, and they both talked about it. The primary cause of the displacement of the cornet for the trumpet is World War II.
My Uncle was born way before WWII, and the instrument to purchase was a cornet for concert band, including solo repertoire in the tradition of Clarke and others, and other ensembles. So my grandparents purchased a King Silvertone for my uncle.
By contrast, my Dad was born just before WWII, and grew up with Harry James as his favorite player. Because of swing music, the entire musicality shifted to preference for trumpets. So my grandmother (my grandfather had untimely died by that point) purchased a King Super 20 trumpet for my Dad.
Where reasonable persons may differ, my information comes from two players who lived through the transition. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1466 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:28 am Post subject: |
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iiipopes wrote: | I disagree with all the above, because both my Uncle and my Dad played, and they both talked about it. The primary cause of the displacement of the cornet for the trumpet is World War II.
My Uncle was born way before WWII, and the instrument to purchase was a cornet for concert band, including solo repertoire in the tradition of Clarke and others, and other ensembles. So my grandparents purchased a King Silvertone for my uncle.
By contrast, my Dad was born just before WWII, and grew up with Harry James as his favorite player. Because of swing music, the entire musicality shifted to preference for trumpets. So my grandmother (my grandfather had untimely died by that point) purchased a King Super 20 trumpet for my Dad.
Where reasonable persons may differ, my information comes from two players who lived through the transition. |
This is what is referred to as the "Zeitgeist"!!
There was never a contest between these horns. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 548
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | This is what is referred to as the "Zeitgeist"!!
There was never a contest between these horns. |
I never said it was a contest. I only relayed my relatives' observations of what was more popular when. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 663
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:24 am Post subject: Big band |
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Always thought that the big bands of the 1940s required the loud piercing of the trumpet. _________________ King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e4 cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 9e cornet mouthpiece
Bach 5 B cornet mouthpiece |
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OldKing Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2017 Posts: 89 Location: Boerne, TX
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Richard A wrote: | IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance. |
While this might be true in Texas, I really don't think there is any correlation in the other states of the union. |
You are vastly underestimating the greatest state in the Union's influence.
You must be from Oklahoma originally. _________________ For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - 1 Cor 14:8 |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12656 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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OldKing wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Richard A wrote: | IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance. |
While this might be true in Texas, I really don't think there is any correlation in the other states of the union. |
You are vastly underestimating the greatest state in the Union's influence.
You must be from Oklahoma originally. |
When did California enter the conversation? |
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:10 am Post subject: |
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My own theory is that the trumpet gained ascendance because early recording was non-electronic. It wasn't even electric. It was physical. So the horns had to be loud. This is also why early jazz had things like those coconuts for percussion, because drums overwhelmed the other instruments.
Before the 1930s were even out, Whiteman even had Bix Beiderbecke, known for playing cornet, switched over to trumpet.
So my theory is: If you played cornet, it meant you were smaller-time, playing small venues, etc and not being recorded, while if you played a trumpet, it showed you were ready to make a record at the drop of a hat. And they did make 'em at the drop of a hat in the 1920s. The reason there's still so much collector vinyl from the 1920s and 1930s is they made a mind-boggling amount of it. A band or just a group of musicians with a known lead man would be gotten together, they'd cut a disc, and the lead guy'd get handed $50 and the sidemen $10 or $20 each and doing this once a week was not uncommon. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1466 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:26 am Post subject: |
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iiipopes wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | This is what is referred to as the "Zeitgeist"!!
There was never a contest between these horns. |
I never said it was a contest. I only relayed my relatives' observations of what was more popular when. |
Sorry didn't mean to be rude or sound condescending! _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 548
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | Sorry didn't mean to be rude or sound condescending! |
No offence taken. Thanks for joining in the discussion. As posted above, there are many reasons the trumpet superceded the cornet in the USA. My post was only one observation. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:20 am Post subject: trumpet or cornet |
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Just to add something after the fact. 49 years ago I made symphonic band in college as a freshman. They told me I would be in the cornet section and then gave me a horn. Every piece in the folder was marked for cornet. Our cornet section was six, and there were a 1st and 2nd trumpet. I agree with the thought on projection for outdoors that some people added. It is different horses for different courses. I had a conn 36B that could project into the next county and a Benge 5 that was much the same way, but the Getzen and Schilke cornets I have played packed a punch and good projection, too. |
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derby_mute Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 343 Location: France
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:18 am Post subject: |
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PH wrote: |
Louis Armstrong played cornet as a kid growing up in New Orleans. He played cornet when he played with his mentor, Joe "King" Oliver after they both moved from NOLA to Chicago. However, when Armstrong moved to New York circa 1924 to join Fletcher Henderson's Orchestra he found most of the section played trumpets, rather than the cornet he knew among his New Orleans cohort. In his words, the cornet looked "stubby" and "less virile." So, he switched to trumpet. You can see this transition to trumpet documented during the course of his recordings leading the Hot Five and Hot Seven.
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Armstrong was still playing his Harry B. Jay cornet with Fletcher Henderson. (There is a photo of him with Henderson holding his cornet). He switched to trumpet on his return to Chicago when he began working with Erskine Tate in 1926. Louis stated that Tate preferred to have Louis playing trumpet. _________________ Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9002 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: |
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After reviewing all of the above, I'm wondering if it isn't as much based on personal experience and when/where you were at, at the time.
For example. the suggestion that the reason was based on marching band use doesn't apply to me at all. In Hawai'i the only marching bands were the weaker ones trying to call attention to themselves. My band was one of the best in the state and we marched in two required ROTC parades a year. That was it. So the marching band reason does not apply to us.
We can second guess the motives of musical directors, et al, but on a personal level it was simply that the "old" music used cornets and we represented the newer, hence (to me?) "hipper" instrument. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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derby_mute Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 343 Location: France
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: | My own theory is that the trumpet gained ascendance because early recording was non-electronic. It wasn't even electric. It was physical. So the horns had to be loud. This is also why early jazz had things like those coconuts for percussion, because drums overwhelmed the other instruments.
Before the 1930s were even out, Whiteman even had Bix Beiderbecke, known for playing cornet, switched over to trumpet.
So my theory is: If you played cornet, it meant you were smaller-time, playing small venues, etc and not being recorded, while if you played a trumpet, it showed you were ready to make a record at the drop of a hat. And they did make 'em at the drop of a hat in the 1920s. The reason there's still so much collector vinyl from the 1920s and 1930s is they made a mind-boggling amount of it. A band or just a group of musicians with a known lead man would be gotten together, they'd cut a disc, and the lead guy'd get handed $50 and the sidemen $10 or $20 each and doing this once a week was not uncommon. |
You might want to consider checking your facts before posting.
Coconuts on records? Drummers were using woodblocks or temple blocks - not coconuts. Collector "vinyl" from the 1920s and '30s? Records were pressed on shellac.
Bix played cornet with Whiteman. Always. He preferred the sound of the cornet to the trumpet.
There are plenty of recordings from the 1920s with musicians playing cornet - King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band (King Oliver and Louis Armstrong), the New Orleans Rhythm Kings (Paul Mares), the Original Dixieland Jazz Band (Nick LaRocca), the Wolverines with Bix, et. al. Armstrong didn't switch to trumpet until 1926, Oliver in the late 1920s, and some guys like Jimmy McPartland never played trumpet. _________________ Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model
Last edited by derby_mute on Sat May 12, 2018 11:22 am; edited 3 times in total |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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LittleRusty wrote: | OldKing wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Richard A wrote: | IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance. |
While this might be true in Texas, I really don't think there is any correlation in the other states of the union. |
You are vastly underestimating the greatest state in the Union's influence.
You must be from Oklahoma originally. |
When did California enter the conversation? |
It didn't, until you brought it up. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I was remembering something the other day that relates a little bit to this thread. I started playing when I was 10 years old, in fifth grade. I come from a lower middle class family, as did most of my school chums.
When I started, one typically started on a rented (usually a Conn director) cornet. The big carrot that was held out was "Practice hard and get better and maybe next year we'll BUY you a TRUMPET!"
I don't know where this mentality came from, but I'm wondering how many other fifth graders got ingrained with this idea in the 60s. I know that when I got my first trumpet, I was on cloud nine and I distinctly remember thinking that I'd somehow 'arrived' and could now work to be a serious player.
People are weird. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12656 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Why are trumpets seen as "better" than cornets |
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RandyTX wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | OldKing wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Richard A wrote: | IMHO, football is at the root of the trumpets ascendance. |
While this might be true in Texas, I really don't think there is any correlation in the other states of the union. |
You are vastly underestimating the greatest state in the Union's influence.
You must be from Oklahoma originally. |
When did California enter the conversation? |
It didn't, until you brought it up. |
I guess I missed the joke. When he referred to the greatest state in the Union, California, I thought he was serious. |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: |
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khedger wrote: | When I started, one typically started on a rented (usually a Conn director) cornet. The big carrot that was held out was "Practice hard and get better and maybe next year we'll BUY you a TRUMPET!"
I don't know where this mentality came from, but I'm wondering how many other fifth graders got ingrained with this idea in the 60s. I know that when I got my first trumpet, I was on cloud nine and I distinctly remember thinking that I'd somehow 'arrived' and could now work to be a serious player. |
I think it very much depended on exactly when/where you grew up when it comes to the cornet vs. trumpet issue.
In some parts of Texas (at least) as late as the 80s, you were still expected to have a cornet all through high school at least. Band directors were often adamant that you have a good quality cornet for "Concert Band" even if you owned an equal or better trumpet.
I'd go to UIL band events and see only cornets in the sections, with the exception of orchestra.
For marching band, you could basically play anything you were dumb enough to take outside and risk damaging. For "stage band" (aka jazz band or big band) you could play either. But when football season was over and you started playing concert band music, you better break out the cornet.
Just about the only exception was when playing a band transcription (or other work) that had both cornet and trumpet parts. The lowly trumpet could be used on the trumpet parts, but only then.
Times have definitely changed. I've even heard one university professor in a nearby music department refer to cornets as 'legacy instruments' for reasons that still evade me.
At times, I think the only real opposition to cornets comes from people that don't own one and/or don't want to buy one. If you own both, it's fairly easy to discover where *both* can be useful at various times. If anything, there is a resurgence of interest (at least in the US) with cornets happening, mostly because of the growth rate of brass bands (British style, not New Orleans) that's happening all over.
Anyway, I don't think there's any point in saying silly things like one is better than the other. That's like saying you shouldn't own a hammer, because in a pinch a screwdriver handle could be used in its place. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 722 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RandyTX"] khedger wrote: |
In some parts of Texas (at least) as late as the 80s, you were still expected to have a cornet all through high school at least. Band directors were often adamant that you have a good quality cornet for "Concert Band" even if you owned an equal or better trumpet.
I'd go to UIL band events and see only cornets in the sections, with the exception of orchestra.
For marching band, you could basically play anything you were dumb enough to take outside and risk damaging. For "stage band" (aka jazz band or big band) you could play either. But when football season was over and you started playing concert band music, you better break out the cornet.
Just about the only exception was when playing a band transcription (or other work) that had both cornet and trumpet parts. The lowly trumpet could be used on the trumpet parts, but only then. |
I went to high school in Texas in the late 1960’s. In that era cornets and trumpets auditioned for All-State Band separately and for All-State Orchestra it was trumpets only. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:11 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | khedger wrote: | When I started, one typically started on a rented (usually a Conn director) cornet. The big carrot that was held out was "Practice hard and get better and maybe next year we'll BUY you a TRUMPET!"
I don't know where this mentality came from, but I'm wondering how many other fifth graders got ingrained with this idea in the 60s. I know that when I got my first trumpet, I was on cloud nine and I distinctly remember thinking that I'd somehow 'arrived' and could now work to be a serious player. |
I think it very much depended on exactly when/where you grew up when it comes to the cornet vs. trumpet issue.
In some parts of Texas (at least) as late as the 80s, you were still expected to have a cornet all through high school at least. Band directors were often adamant that you have a good quality cornet for "Concert Band" even if you owned an equal or better trumpet.
I'd go to UIL band events and see only cornets in the sections, with the exception of orchestra.
For marching band, you could basically play anything you were dumb enough to take outside and risk damaging. For "stage band" (aka jazz band or big band) you could play either. But when football season was over and you started playing concert band music, you better break out the cornet.
Just about the only exception was when playing a band transcription (or other work) that had both cornet and trumpet parts. The lowly trumpet could be used on the trumpet parts, but only then.
Times have definitely changed. I've even heard one university professor in a nearby music department refer to cornets as 'legacy instruments' for reasons that still evade me.
At times, I think the only real opposition to cornets comes from people that don't own one and/or don't want to buy one. If you own both, it's fairly easy to discover where *both* can be useful at various times. If anything, there is a resurgence of interest (at least in the US) with cornets happening, mostly because of the growth rate of brass bands (British style, not New Orleans) that's happening all over.
Anyway, I don't think there's any point in saying silly things like one is better than the other. That's like saying you shouldn't own a hammer, because in a pinch a screwdriver handle could be used in its place. |
that's interesting. At NO time in my school days was I ever required to play one or the other, though I think cornet would have been frowned on for jazz band. Those Kenton charts just don't sound right with cornets! However, it was never an issue for concert, marching, or any other band. Interesting. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9002 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I played cornet in my Jr. H.S. jazz band, then trumpet in H.S., then trumpet in university, although our concert band (Texas, 60s) had separate cornet and trumpet sections. I went from one extreme (disrespected) situation to another (fanatic). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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