Brass poisoning

[danny45635]

Hello everyone,

I did a post about lip swelling a few months ago, and I'm curious if I have brass poisoning. Would someone be able to describe exactly what it is and how to tell if you have it? Of course I can't be diagnosed online, but just wanted to know if anyone knew about it.

Danny
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1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4

[John Mohan]

I doubt you suffered from brass poisoning, which is very rare and normally involves the inhalation of zinc oxide vapors causing irritation to the respiratory tract.

I just looked for and found your original topic thread lip swelling mystery possibly solved. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I'm fairly certain you were (are?) suffering from a food allergy.

I've had a similar thing happen three times in the past, but with more dramatic results. The first time, it was when I was playing on Disney's "Der Glöckner von Notre Dame" (Hunchback) in Berlin for the final two years of it's three year world premiere run there. The show played at the Musical Theater am Potsdamer Platz, a huge theater built specifically for the show.



You can't see it due to the angle but the theater had a very tall (at least 7 stories) complex at the rear of the building including dressing rooms, dance rehearsal halls, a 7th floor orchestra rehearsal room big enough to house a full orchestra, and on I think the 5th floor (it's been awhile) there is a full service commissary for the actors, musicians and crew.

As was my custom, before a show I ate my lunch (two show day) in the commissary - on this particular day I had a very nice German Sausage, Bratkartoffeln (fried potatoes with bacon and onions) and a bottle of vitamin/fruit juice (popular in Germany and similar to what we got as kids in Kindergarten here in the States in the 1960's).

About 15 minutes before showtime I headed down toward the orchestra pit. As I rode down in the elevator I felt a strange tingling in my upper lip. When I pulled my trumpet out I found I could not even play a single note! It was clear my lip had swollen in some sort of allergic reaction. With nothing I could do about it I took my place in my chair. As the orchestra did our tuning notes (A for the strings then Bb Concert for the wind players), I tried to, but couldn't even play the middle C. All of a sudden, Heiko Lippmann (the assistant MD who was conducting that day) looked at me in horror and frantically waved at me to leave the Pit. I left the Pit, entering the "Orchestergraben", the room below and behind the Pit where we kept our cases and personal stuff and warmed up. There was a little mirror in the corner. I looked in the mirror and Oh My God!, I looked like the Beast from Beauty and the Beast! Not only were my lips and cheeks swollen up, but I had two huge swollen areas on my forehead above each eye!!!

I headed up to the personnel office to tell them to call a sub, and as I headed there I started feeling tightness in my throat and difficulty with breathing. As I walked into the manager's office he took one look at me and immediately dialed the German equivalent of 911 (112). I went down to the stage door to wait for the Notarzt (paramedics) to arrive. It was comical to see their ambulance pull up along the street behind the theater and not notice the long entrance way to the stage door area (it was normally a sidewalk but had those pillars in the cement that could go down to let vehicle traffic through). They drove slowly back and forth several times on the street before figuring it out. By the time they arrived at the stage door I was already feeling better.

They gave me Benadryl and told me I had suffered a food allergy, probably to the fat or oils in the sausage. I went home and slept for about 14 hours and was good to go for both shows on Sunday.

They were probably right about it being fat or oils from the meat, because the next time it happened several years later I was on a road trip across the U.S. I had a Whopper at Burger King for lunch and then got back out on the road. Within minutes I started noticing the old familiar tingling in my lip, and got off at the next exit with services, bought Benadryl and took two capsules. That took care of it nicely, except making it very difficult to stay awake while driving! (Yes, should have just pulled over and dozed but I was anxious to see my kids).

The third and most recent time was about ten years ago. My youngest son and daughter were visiting from Montana and we had a dinner at the Rainforest Cafe restaurant in Chicago. I had their amazing Barbecued Ribs - and along came the tingling and swelling. It was pretty serious this time and as we quickly paid the bill and headed for a nearby Walgreens I felt my throat tighten. As I sat near the drug counter at the Walgreens after taking Benadryl but still having breathing troubles, I was worried enough to literally be praying to God not to have me die in front of my two young children. As I said my prayer, I noticed the sound of music - it was my 11 year old son singing the Oompa Loompa song (my face had become quite colorful).

Anyway, in your original post you wrote that your lip always swells after you eat lunch. It seems clear to me that you're eating something you are allergic to. You should see a doctor and have him prescribe you an EpiPen (I have one now, though it is past the date of expiration). These allergies can get worse over time and unless you can figure out what you are specifically allergic to, it's kind of like a ticking time-bomb. You should at least carry a couple of Benadryl capsules with you (and if you need them, don't bite them, but swallow them whole because if you chew them your saliva will neutralize them).

And try varying and recording what you eat for lunch keeping track of when your lip does and does not swell. Maybe you can narrow down what's causing the reaction.

I'll post this as a quote in your original thread, too, since it might be of help to others who miss this thread.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[Bob Stevenson]

I'm not sure that you can be "poisoned" by brass in the accepted sense of the word...ie, I doubt a toxic effect from brass. However, one can have an allergic reaction to various metals in which the body tries to reject that metals influence and may present allergic reaction symptoms such as redness and swelling or soreness.

When I was a young player I reacted badly to playing on a bare brass mouthpiece which made my lips sore and tender and which the older players in the band called 'brass canker' and which only affected a very few of us youngsters. I would hesitate to call it a 'poisoning' or poisonous affect. Later, i discovered that I had a much more aggressive reaction to some aluminium alloys, which can still bring me out in a rash and then open sores! possibly this is caused by a sensitivity to zinc which is in both brass and some alluminium alloys.

[John Mohan]

Hi Bob,

The OP has stated in his previous thread he plays on a gold-plated mouthpiece. He also wrote in the earlier thread that he has no issues when practicing in the morning, and that the swelling always happens right after he eats lunch. Given those facts, it seems to me he has a food allergy.

Or: I wonder about a metal allergy from the (cheap) flatware provided by his school lunch cafeteria?

Cheers,

John

[danny45635]

Mr. Mohan-
Thank you for your response! I definitely wil try to take a visit to the doctor to see if they can help me figure it out. I didn't mention in my post earlier that I no longer eat the same lunch, but still have the swelling, just not as bad. So that's why is suspected it could possibly be from the metal in my mouthpiece.
Thankyou for your response and I know I have a reference should that ever happen to me.

Danny
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1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4

[derekthor]

If your mouthpieces are plated and there's no exposed raw brass, it's not brass poisoning.

[Bflatman]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here.

Brass poisoning is Lead poisoning from contact with brass.

Brass contains Copper and Zinc, and in some cases other metals. If you are going to machine the brass it is usual to add Lead to the brass.

Lead makes turning and cutting smoother and quicker. Lead is often added to brass for manufacturing of mouthpieces.

Some mouthpiece makers refuse to use added Lead but most do, and they do this because they know the mouthpiece will be covered in a layer of silver that protects the player from the Lead.

Lead upon exposure to water, will leach out into the water. Brass fittings in plumbing such as Brass faucets have been proven to leach a dangerous amount of Lead into the drinking water in the pipes and using Lead in brass in plumbing has been illegal for several years because of the aggressive nature of the leaching and the horrific effects of Lead poisoning.

Not so in mouthpieces.

If your brass becomes exposed then the saliva from your mouth can leach the Lead out of the mouthpiece and as it is on your lips, it is possible that you could contract Lead poisoning by absorbing or ingesting this Lead contaminated saliva.

There are cases of trumpet players contracting Lead poisoning.

I consider this a low risk however, If you refuse to play on a mouthpiece that has exposed brass there is no risk.

I play on mouthpieces that have exposed brass and I may well be foolish doing so.

It is possible that localised exposure to Lead from exposed brass in the mouthpiece might lead to an allergic reaction and lip swelling, I am unable to comment on that but for general advice look to the effects of Lead poisoning.

[stumac]

I get a slight reaction to raw brass mouthpieces, a little rash on the contact area so I avoid playing them.

Free machining brass can contain up to 3.5% lead, I do not know how much lead one must ingest to show symptoms of poisoning, It is cumulative.

A search of the British Medical Journal index only brings up one entry early 1900s of an illness among workers in a brass foundry attributed to Brass poisoning.

Regards, Stuart.

[danny45635]

Thanks for clearing everything up everyone!
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1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4

[1jazzyalex]

John Mohan - did you ever figure out what you were allergic to? Sounds like it's something connected with pork. Maybe not pork itself but a seasoning, maybe even if the pig ate a certain thing before it was slaughtered. Good thing Benadryl helps.
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Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A