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A Tale of Two Burbanks


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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: A Tale of Two Burbanks Reply with quote

A Tale of Two Burbanks

Who hasn’t seen the doppelgänger articles that put photos of historic figures alongside of those of present day celebrities? I, for one, tend to always see someone I know in the faces of total strangers almost everywhere I go, much to the chagrin of my wife! Sometimes it is startling how much two people can really look alike. One such case popped up in my family just last year. Someone posted an old photograph of my paternal grandmother’s sister. Her name was Helen. I had never before seen any pictures of her and all that I knew was that she had died young from tuberculosis. That was in the early 1900s, probably about the time my grandmother married my grandfather around the end of the Great War. The image is gripping because she looks hauntingly like my brother’s daughter, born three generations and nearly 100 years later. It’s fascinating to me how DNA persists down a family line and every so often gives us these sort of living memories of people and times long gone.



But, can it happen with the work of our hands? Do the things we create have a sort of DNA? Can the characteristics with which we imbue our creations pop up later in the same way? Those are questions I sought to find answers for when I was introduced to Michael Thomas and his Burbank Trumpet Company last summer at the ITG Kanstul factory tour. The line of Burbank trumpets is intended to continue the Benge line of horns begun by Elden Benge in Chicago in the 1930s and made famous in the 1950s and 60s after Elden moved his factory from Chicago, Illinois to 1122 W. Burbank Blvd., in Burbank, California.



To follow this particular family line, I think a little history is in order. It’s well known that the French Besson company are credited with developing the design for what has become the modern trumpet. In the early decades of the 20th century, Bessons were sought after for their sound and playability by professional trumpet players like Elden Benge. Byron Autrey has shared with me a cornucopia of wonderful details about those early Bessons that he’s gleaned from over 60 years of research. But, the one that pertains to our tail is that the factory suffered a fire so severe that it totally devastated the company and its ability to manufacture. All of the tooling was destroyed. Indeed, with the coming threat of war at that time, it was not until later that Besson regrouped and began to produce instruments once more. I’m told that some of the finer processes used before that fire were lost and have not been rediscovered to this day.

The loss of Besson created a demand in America that could not be met by the US makers of the day. So Elden Benge, principle trumpet for the Chicago Symphony, decided to try his own hand and learn to build a quality trumpet himself. Byron, who at one time was proclaimed Elden’s “biggest dealer” (Elden only sold through professional musicians), told me that Elden searched the country for the best three Besson trumpets. He bought them and used them to establish his design. One he took and filled the bell with molten lead, then pealed off the brass and measured the lead plug for his new bell mandrel. I shudder to this day thinking about a man so dedicated to producing the best trumpet that he was willing to destroy an irreplaceable masterpiece to do it!

Elden would build both medium large .460” bore trumpets and a smaller number of large .468” bore trumpets during his time in Chicago, which Joe Lill indicates stretched from 1936 - 1953 when he moved to California. Later, Elden’s son Donald would return to Chicago to visit his grandmother and find in her attic two bell mandrels that were thought to be the ones Elden used to make his trumpets there.

In California, Elden would again make both ML and L trumpets, but some time in the middle 50s he developed a new design built around a valve block with different geometry. The MLP, or Medium Large Plus, had a .464” bore and a long stroke piston design that vertically separated the piston port tubes that normally collide with each other forming bumps in their passages where the tubes are “siamesed” together. Those squish areas are markedly smaller and flatter than in his older design, which he continued to use for both the ML and L models. This new design became the 3X+, which was essentially his Chicago ML trumpet with the new valve block and moderately increased bore. This would go on to become his most popular model, a “flagship” of sorts and eventually a brass instrument icon. Some players over the years have complained about that long stroke, but it persisted and was used throughout the 1970s.

Elden was killed in 1960 when he pulled into traffic in front of his house and factory. Afterward, his son Donald took over the business and continued making what Elden had dubbed, “The best trumpets in the world!” Many well respected men of the brass industry worked with Benge throughout that time. Renold Schilke, Zig Kanstul, Irving Bush, Bob Reeves, and others added their own voices to the Benge narrative and it was in Burbank that the Benge legacy reached its highest point. Eventually, Zig Kanstul, who while working in the Olds factory in the 1950s by day and had moonlighted with Elden at night, began to work with Donald and the factory moved from Burbank Blvd. to downtown Los Angeles. For the few years it was there, the horns were still stamped with the old Burbank address. Later, Donald sold the rights to the horns and Benge name to King, a large instrument conglomerate. Under King, the factory was moved to Anaheim, east of Los Angeles. Zig Kanstul was hired as president of Benge and the horns began to be stamped with Los Angeles as the place of manufacture.

Catalogs from the Burbank years show Bb trumpet models 1X, 2X, 2X+, 3X, 3X+, 5X and 6X, three C trumpets, D/Eb trumpet and Bb cornets. Later in the LA years, Zig would produce the 4X Bb trumpet, the 1X, 3X and 5X flugelhorn models, as well. In 1979, Zig saw the writing on the wall and left Benge to spend just a few years with Conn. In the early 1980s, King was purchased by UMI and the Benge factory in Anaheim was closed. UMI moved production of Benge instruments to Ohio, selling the Benge tooling for scrap to - you guessed it - Zig Kanstul. The trumpets that began coming out of Ohio weren’t thought to be up to the traditional Benge standard, so Zig approached Donald and proposed they use the tooling left behind to produce their own horns again under the Burbank name. It was at this time that Donald produced the old mandrels from Chicago. So, the Burbank trumpet line began and continues to be built to this day at the Kanstul factory in Anaheim, California.

In the middle 80s, Donald and Zig had a vehement disagreement and parted ways. In 2007, Donald was killed, like his father, in an automobile accident not far from the old Burbank address. In the later 2000s, the Benge name was absorbed into the Conn-Selmer conglomerate, owned at the time by Wurlitzer. The quality of the instrument, now just the 3X+, sank dismally. It was in one discussion I had with Zig that this predicament brought him to the verge of tears, as he decried the state of the Benge name and legacy.

But the Burbank line lives on! Michael Thomas, of Roché-Thomas valve oil fame, was approached by Zig in the 1980s to take over distribution of the brand. Michael Thomas Music has held that right ever since, though for a decade Michael suffered through the devastation of all but losing his wife to yet another horrible automobile accident. When she eventually passed, Michael began to relaunch the Burbank Trumpet line. Once again, you can find him at ITG, the NAAM Show and other gatherings with his top-selling 6X-CG, 5X and 3X+ trumpets. But, I’ll tell you a little secret. The photo that depicts a brass finish 3X+ model in his Burbank brochure is actually his personal vintage Burbank Benge!

Having owned, played and loved a Los Angeles Benge 5X for over 30 years, I was super curious to study a real MLP horn and to compare it to today’s Burbank. Michael was kind enough to agree to loan me his 3X+ Burbank demonstrator and his Elden-built vintage Benge for just that purpose.



In the Hand

Before I moved to Arizona from Southern California, I had the chance to ask Zig Kanstul about the Benge valves and their infamous long stroke design. He told me that both the large bore and medium large bore models all used the same valve block, but there was what was called the MLP valve block which was different. It was made for the .464” models, the 2X+ and 3X+ trumpets. On a different day just a handful of blocks away from the Kanstul factory at Anaheim Band Instruments, I had the chance to find a matched set of .468” slides for my own Benge 5X, which I still owned at the time. I was handed several plastic bins filled with jumbled collections of Benge slides of all sizes. I found that what Zig had told me was true, that the .460” and .468 slides would fit, but the .464” slides had larger radius bends with wider spaced tubes. They wouldn’t fit at all on my trumpet. So, when I had the chance to examine Michael Thomas’ Benge 3X+, I went straight to the valves to see what the MLP block was all about.



The first question is whether the long throw is real or an optical illusion. I can tell you that it’s real. Compared to the current Burbank 3X+ (all Burbank horns use the same valve block), the throw of the Benge is 1/8” longer. Compared to Kanstul’s own Signature valve block as found on my Wild Thing, the Benge has a full 1/4” longer stroke. Why? The first thing to notice is the siamese areas of the piston port tubing. Those dimpled areas are much smaller and flatter in the MLP design than the Burbank valves. If memory serves, my 5X had even more deformed areas in the piston tubes. So, the most obvious reason Elden would design this valve block is to create smoother passageways through the ports.

Another change I mentioned earlier in this design over the ML and L Benge valves is the wider bore centers of the valve slides. Interestingly, Kanstul kept this spacing for its homogenized Burbank valve design. Though I didn’t have an ML Benge with which to compare, I believe this greater vertical spacing is half the geometry that gives the smoother port contours. The other is the stroke itself. It’s hard to envision what goes on as we depress a piston (even when looking at the piston itself), how the flow of sound is rerouted from the through-passage, or transfer port, into the valve tubing, but it is the extra distance that the piston must travel that frees up so much of the internal area inside the piston and allows for less deformed ports. In contrast, the Signature valve design uses transfer ports (going from the tuning slide into the valve, between valves and into the bell tail) that are offset with curved tubes in between the valve barrels as a solution to this problem. The Benge and Burbank designs, like the old Bessons, use straight-through transfer ports, so more vertical separation has been designed in to give acceptable flow through the piston ports. Thus the longer stroke. One more characteristic of this design is that it may give more audible separation between the notes of a scale or passage as the valves are worked up and down. Byron Autrey is the one who suggested this to me.



In most trumpet music, I don’t think the extra length of stroke is a problem. It’s not hard to make the adjustment. For really fast technical passages it would make things more difficult. Some of the stuff Arturo and his band play might well be impossible on the old Benge, unless the player has dedicated many hundreds of hours to develop the needed dexterity. The question becomes, “Is it really necessary?” Kanstul’s answer is, “NO!” The Burbank design gives a player a real break. The stroke is very acceptable, if not the shortest, while still maintaining both the traditional look of the Benge and the learned benefits of the old MLP geometry. Port smoothness is very good.

On the visual end of things, the overall height of the valve assembly is virtually identical on both these horns, but the valve casings are about 1/4” longer on the Kanstul, to offset the shorter stems. The Benge top caps sit down near the top of the bell taper, as it passes the valve block, while the Kanstul caps sit higher. The valve buttons are exactly the same distance above the bell tube, so the two horns feel the same to the fingers and hands. At the other end, the bottom caps look identical until you unscrew them and look inside. The Benge caps have a secondary concave relief machined into them, but a close examination reveals that the final thickness of the brass around the vent hole is the same. This means that the Benge caps are actually heavier than the Kanstul caps.



Other differences are as follows: The Burbank mouthpiece receiver is shorter than the Benge; the Burbank bell rim measures 4-7/8”, whereas the Benge is 4-5/8”; The Burbank bell bow occurs further down the length of the bell tail and results in a bell rim that is about 3/8-1/2” closer to the player. That doesn’t sound like much and if you play the two horns separately it’s not obvious, but playing them back-to-back it was very noticeable. To me, it was enough so that this was easily the most significant thing that told me which horn was which.







Other than those minor differences, the two horns look remarkably similar. Those turnings on the valve slides and those lovely finger buttons are the same. The radius of the bell bow hasn’t changed and produces the same vertical space for the hands. However, Benge mounted the 3rd valve finger ring 1/4” further away from the valve casing, compared to the Kanstul. I particularly like the extra room for my large hands, but most players will probably like Burbank setup better. The tubing used to make the slides and slide receivers is ever so slightly different. The Benge parts are a few thousandths larger, so a Kanstul male slide tube will fit inside the Benge receiver, but not the other way around. A Benge valve cap will screw onto a Kanstul valve casing, but not the other way around. Like my niece and great aunt, the Kanstul Burbank is not quite identical to the Burbank Benge, but the resemblance is striking!


Let’s Play!


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The most important question in this comparison is this: Does the Burbank trumpet offer the same experience and sound as the Benges of old? In a word, yes…mostly. The two horns sound similar and have the same sort of frequency balance with more midrange and less low range to the timbre mix than, say, the classic Bach 37 sound. Compared to the Benge, the Burbank has a more resonant sound. There are more high frequencies in every note and there is a hint more resistance and a tiny bit less looseness than this particular Benge. It could be that the Benge valves have more than 50 years of wear on them, or that the tuning slide crook has some red rot showing. It may be that those same 50 years have released some internal stresses that are still present in the new Burbank, but whatever the source of the difference, the Benge has a noticeable sense of ease and a relaxed confidence to the way it plays. It’s what I’ve called “the dance” and Benge is the best at it.

I think the Modern Burbank sound will carry farther, because of those high frequencies, and it should cut through an ensemble sound better. The extra feeling of structure in the way the horn slots will help most players play more accurately, I imagine. There is still enough room to bend pitches and create nuance and phrasing, but it does feel a little more mainstream.

That sound is why trumpet players choose Benge. It’s different, lighter and somehow more fun. This sound is the Burbank’s inheritance. The full story behind this isn’t quite what you’ve heard. Or, rather, you probably haven’t heard the whole story. When I was researching this article, Jack Kanstul told me a whole separate chapter that I was totally unaware of before. Yes, it is true by all accounts that Donald Benge found mandrels in his grandmother’s attic in Chicago and these were used, at least initially (mandrels do wear out and get replaced periodically), in the Burbank design. If these tools were indeed the ones that Elden used to form the bells of his Chicago era designs, this may account for the difference in sound, compared to the Burbank Benge. The one Chicago Benge I had the chance to play also had a memorably vibrant, light and lovely sound.

The other chapter to this history goes like this: One day, in the late 1980s or early 90s, a man came to the Kanstul factory and told of an encounter he had at Knott’s Berry Farm in Buena Park, CA, He was playing a gig there when, during a break in sets, a man approached him and told him he had an old “Bengee” (like bang-ee) trumpet. They met together to see the horn and it turned out to be a mint condition Chicago Benge ML that looked largely untouched since its manufacture. The man was willing to take it to the Kanstul factory where it was measured and a new bell mandrel cut from the dimensions gained from that horn. This became the bell for the Kanstul 1000 and 1001 “Chicago” models. I suppose, if Donald was right and the mandrels he found were the ones his dad used, then there is a closer relationship between the Kanstul Burbank and the Kanstul Chicago trumpets than there is with the Burbank Benge, as far as the bells are concerned. Regardless, I fell in love with the remarkable sound of the Chicago Benge I played and the Burbank 3X+ has most of the wonder I found in that older trumpet.

I never got the impression that either the Benge or the Burbank were stuffy. As far up above the staff as I can play, the two horns felt pretty free-blowing. They didn’t feel as big as my Wild Thing, but were certainly larger than most ML trumpets. It’s a Goldilocks compromise I have always liked. For me, these MLP horns achieve their best balance when paired with a mouthpiece that is bored to something around #22, give or take. They have plenty or resonance with this size venturi, but none of the upper register push-back that can feel constricting. Other players may find some other combination optimum.

In conclusion, The Burbank 3X+ maintains the same position among the other Burbank models that the Benge 3X+ established when it was introduced back in the 1950s. It is large enough that it is perfect for the electrified ensembles whose music came to be know as “the West Coast Sound.” But it’s also contained enough to fit well into an orchestra. It’s probably the most versatile horn in the Burbank lineup. Like its predecessor, it requires a player to have more control and command over the horn than some other designs, but it rewards such a player with that peculiar Benge fluid musicality not so easily produced by more structured trumpet designs. It’s still a player’s trumpet.

The changes made to this Kanstul design have brought the Benge experience to where more players can enjoy and relate to it. The exaggerated valve stroke is gone, the long overall length has become more restrained, which might feel more familiar to those who have played Schilke or Bach. Slotting is not so very loose. The Benge scale is more manageable. But, the sound? Oh, thank goodness, the Benge sound is still here. You can have it today in a brand new Burbank!


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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.


Last edited by shofarguy on Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:11 pm; edited 11 times in total
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21trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian you need to fix your YouTube link. It doesn't work properly at least for me.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

21trumpet wrote:
Brian you need to fix your YouTube link. It doesn't work properly at least for me.


Thanks. I'm still trying to remember how to imbed the video...
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: A Tale of Two Burbanks Reply with quote

Many thanks to shofarguy for this great article. I have loved my Benge 5X (84XX) that was the first New Trumpet purchase I made (about Fall of 1972 as far as I can recall). I have played it in many bands since, from Big Bands, Latin Bands, Rock and Roll Bands, R&B and even for a few years in an Army Band. It is still a great horn and has been the benchmark for many horns that I have owned since. I have toyed with the idea of a new Burbank Trumpet for quite some time, and your article has only made that desire more pressing. Thanks again for your thorough research and for relating first hand experience.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
21trumpet wrote:
Brian you need to fix your YouTube link. It doesn't work properly at least for me.


Thanks. I'm still trying to remember how to imbed the video...


Works perfect now. Thanks Brian now I just need to watch it.......
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,
Thank you, always good to get more info about Benge, I wish this man making new horns much luck. My 3X_+ has a long valve stroke, as you describe, but it's not been a problem, it's just one of the best trumpets I've ever played, and in the repair business, you play many horns.
-Lionel
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Michael and Burbank trumpets Reply with quote

Thank you Brian for this well researched piece on Benge and Burbank trumpets. Knowing Michael well (and his fine taste for scotch), anybody looking for the Benge trumpet that re-creates the original, I suggest getting in touch with Michael at: resp88fa@verizon.net

He also is the sole distributor for the famous Irving Bush mouthpieces plus several accessories in addition to Roche-Thomas valve oil. Emo mutes are one of the many accessories he imports.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael is a very sweet gentleman and a stand up guy. His horns are very much worth a look.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed an interesting story!

Thank you so very, very much for bot the article and the video.

I regret selling my 1972 3X...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Brian,

Very interesting and informative article.

I've had a discussion with someone about my Kanstul Chicago 1001, in which they say it's an "exact copy" of a Chicago Benge. I had my doubts, and you've put it to bed.

Great horn though.

Cheers,
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

p76 wrote:
Thanks Brian,

Very interesting and informative article.

I've had a discussion with someone about my Kanstul Chicago 1001, in which they say it's an "exact copy" of a Chicago Benge. I had my doubts, and you've put it to bed.

Great horn though.

Cheers,
Roger


There are detail differences between the 1001 and Benge horns. My LA Benge was very much like it, but the bottom valve caps and receiver were the obvious differences. Those details are closer to actual Benge horns on the Burbank trumpets.

Its funny to me that Zig was so very hush-hush about the differences, but he wanted to protect the integrity of the Burbank line.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, one needs to keep a bit of mystery. It's a great horn - had some tuning issues with it but have now matched it to an ACB mouthpiece and it is such a nice thing to play!

Cheers,
Roger
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: A Tale of Two Burbanks Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Under King, the factory was moved to Fullerton, east of Los Angeles.


Excellent article Brian, but I believe you are confusing the location of the Olds factory (Fullerton) with the location they moved the Benge factory to (Anaheim). If I am wrong please forgive me.

Concerning the longer piston stroke, while it is true that the 3X+ had a longer stroke than the other Benge models, even the others had a longer stroke and consequently less intrusion in the passages through the pistons than Bach or Schilke trumpets. Claude Gordon pointed this out to me in 1979 when he was extolling on the virtues of the CG Benge trumpet.

Concerning how to embed YouTube links into TH posts, you just need to remove the s from the https portion of the link, then highlight it and click the YouTube button above. Like this:


Link


Note also that the URL address you use needs to be the one that appears in the URL address box AFTER you've gone to the video. If you use the address provided by YouTube to you as the creator of the video it will not embed properly.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally had the chance to really read and absorb this article. These horns sound like they are nicely made, and worth consideration, especially since such great care was made to capture the essence of the Benge.

I'm curious where the Kanstul Burbank model from the 1990s falls along this spectrum. A friend of mine had one, and as I recall, it was a really nice trumpet that did just about everything pretty well. He used it both as a legit horn, and he used it playing in a Latin band. If memory serves, it looked just like a Benge.

It also makes me curious about the Kanstul Chicago models - those sound like they might also capture the essence of the old Benge trumpets very well.

Thanks for taking the time to put all of that together!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: A Tale of Two Burbanks Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Under King, the factory was moved to Fullerton, east of Los Angeles.


Excellent article Brian, but I believe you are confusing the location of the Olds factory (Fullerton) with the location they moved the Benge factory to (Anaheim). If I am wrong please forgive me.

Concerning the longer piston stroke, while it is true that the 3X+ had a longer stroke than the other Benge models, even the others had a longer stroke and consequently less intrusion in the passages through the pistons than Bach or Schilke trumpets. Claude Gordon pointed this out to me in 1979 when he was extolling on the virtues of the CG Benge trumpet.

Concerning how to embed YouTube links into TH posts, you just need to remove the s from the https portion of the link, then highlight it and click the YouTube button above. Like this:


Link


Note also that the URL address you use needs to be the one that appears in the URL address box AFTER you've gone to the video. If you use the address provided by YouTube to you as the creator of the video it will not embed properly.

Cheers,

John Mohan


John,

It's entirely possible I've got things wrong, but I seem to remember someone telling me about their trip to the Benge factory shortly after it was moved from Los Angeles. They said it was next to an open field in Fullerton and techs would go outside to a fence line to spray lacquer the horns.

I do think it was Fullerton from LA and later to Anaheim. That is the thread of memory built in my mind from numerous conversations and posts...

For the record, I had Michael proof read it for historical accuracy, but who knows...
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i went to the factory in anaheim.
it was across the street from the BIG A stadium

i seem to remember going there to pick up a mouthpiece
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

About those valves and the longer than average stroke. I spent a fair amount off time trying to identify the pathways those ports determine, what actually happens when one pushes down a valve and when it comes up, the geometry and design choices that were made. I had the Benge, the Burbank and my Wild Thing to compare against each other.

It' surprisingly difficult to envision it all! Certain relationships, port to port, look like they effect each other, but don't. Others seem not to matter so much, but so. The ones that are the key to the stroke and the siamese areas are the transfer ports. If you think about it, each valve tube needs an entrance and exit; there has to be one tube coming from the transfer before it and another going to the transfer after. Then there needs to be a tube that bypasses the valve tubing and goes straight from transfer to transfer. Just identifying which tube is which is more challenging than I imagined.

In the end, it is the rotational position of those transfer ports that determines whether a given design will have a long or short stroke. The straight-through transfer tubes of the Benge, Burbank and Besson designs force a long stroke to ensure those siamese flat areas are acceptable. Having curved transfer tubes, like Bach, Schilke and Kanstul Signature valves makes for a little less crowding inside the piston tube, thus allowing a shorter piston stroke. The MLP valve set seems to be an attempt to go another step toward minimizing those flat areas. It's fun to see the cascade of design elements (like the radius of the 1/2-tone bowls on the valve slides) that occurred because of that one priority.

I don't know why Benge et al chose straight transfer tubes over curved. I don't know, but I suspect that this feature may be the source of the so called Benge scale. Zig once ventured that somewhere near the end of the mouth pipe was the cause of the low 5th partial, but there is that one common denominator in all of those valve blocks and every one of those models has the same intonation characteristic. Too bad he is gone now. I'd like to ask him about it...
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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p76
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:


......

It also makes me curious about the Kanstul Chicago models - those sound like they might also capture the essence of the old Benge trumpets very well.

Thanks for taking the time to put all of that together!


Yes, it is an interesting thought. I've had a chance to back-to-back my Chicago 1001 with an LA Benge 3 that a young player I know is using.

Cosmetically very similar, I think valve casings a little different, think the real Benge a tad lighter, but mine is the easier blow for me (of course in this case 0.464 vs 0.460 will have something to do with that).

I'll remember to take some shots next time and put something up here.

Cheers,
Roger
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jiarby
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this will clear up the address question...
Burbank invoice, check out the rubber stamp top left corner


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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jiarby wrote:
Maybe this will clear up the address question...
Burbank invoice, check out the rubber stamp top left corner




Now there's some history, eh? That has to be one of the earliest serial numbers from the LA factory. I think they moved again before hitting #10,000.
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Brian A. Douglas

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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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